Please read!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,1 ... 97,00.html
http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/macgr ... egor1.html
http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/01/Harry ... hwitz.html
FASCISM, MEDIA, and DRESSING LIKE A NAZI
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A rope leash
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laughingcrow
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yawn....so someone wore a swastika...wow....the lad is stupid not to have realised it would piss people off, but it's not exactly glorifying or condoning Nazism by wearing fancy dress. I saw someone dressed as a pirate once, yet noone was complaining about those tyrants of the high seas and their butchery...let alone the time I saw someone dressed as a Roman centurian!
So we should ban the Swastika (says some obscure Plaid Cymru minister)...OKm but if we do that, let's ban the Hammer and Sickle too, they killed more than the nazis after all, hey why not the British flag too...the Brits killed millions during the colonial days! You try flying a british flag near a Boer descendant in South Africa and see what he says.
Oh...but....it's OK to use it for films....and TV programmes...and plays....and yeah, OK, we need to keep all those cable channels in business so they can show nazi programmes (DO they show anything else).
Oh yeah, and we'll have to conveniently forget the fact it's a symbol of good luck and peace that has existed for thousands of years in many cultures, and got hijacked by a one-testacled buffoon in the name of mass genocide.
So we should ban the Swastika (says some obscure Plaid Cymru minister)...OKm but if we do that, let's ban the Hammer and Sickle too, they killed more than the nazis after all, hey why not the British flag too...the Brits killed millions during the colonial days! You try flying a british flag near a Boer descendant in South Africa and see what he says.
Oh...but....it's OK to use it for films....and TV programmes...and plays....and yeah, OK, we need to keep all those cable channels in business so they can show nazi programmes (DO they show anything else).
Oh yeah, and we'll have to conveniently forget the fact it's a symbol of good luck and peace that has existed for thousands of years in many cultures, and got hijacked by a one-testacled buffoon in the name of mass genocide.
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selfmademug
Well, LC, I'm too exhausted from my anti-anti-space program rant to go on at length, but I do think it's quite different. The association between the symbol of the swastika and the genocide is MUCH closer than those associated with the Hammer and Sickle or the British flag. And I think the comparison with pirates is kind of offensive, myself.
Oh, I'm too tired...
The main thing is, it's not political correctness to avoid dressing in Nazi regalia, it's just good sense. Cause doing otherwise leaves only a few interpretations, prime among them "I'm a fucking imbecile" and "I'm an arrogant bastard above all judgement" and, most dangerously, "I'm so sick of those sanctimonious cry-baby Jews".
Oh, I'm too tired...
The main thing is, it's not political correctness to avoid dressing in Nazi regalia, it's just good sense. Cause doing otherwise leaves only a few interpretations, prime among them "I'm a fucking imbecile" and "I'm an arrogant bastard above all judgement" and, most dangerously, "I'm so sick of those sanctimonious cry-baby Jews".
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invisible Pole
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Basically agree with Mug, except that – due to the fact that I actually lived under communist rule for 23 years – I see no reason why ‘hammer and sickle’ should be treated differently than swastika.
When I see young people wearing t-shirts with hammer & sickle, or with a quartet of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin, or holding red flags with a star, I am baffled why it is so generally accepted in the West.
After all communism killed tens of millions of people, and the above are all symbols of the country which imposed the regime and caused all the suffering in a large part of the world.
Stupidity or plain ignorance ?
When I see young people wearing t-shirts with hammer & sickle, or with a quartet of Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin, or holding red flags with a star, I am baffled why it is so generally accepted in the West.
After all communism killed tens of millions of people, and the above are all symbols of the country which imposed the regime and caused all the suffering in a large part of the world.
Stupidity or plain ignorance ?
If you don't know what is wrong with me
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bambooneedle
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Yeah, coming from a family that was largely diminished by the Holocaust, it would be easy enough for me to say ban all these symbols. But what happens to movie representations of World War II, or even Indiana Jones & The Last Crusade? They are a very real part of history, though my blood chills when I walk through the streets of Barcelona or Paris and see swastikas graffiti'd on stone walls.
Anti-semitism is alive and well in Europe, and it scares the hell out of me, but I don't think banning a symbol will put an end to it.
Anti-semitism is alive and well in Europe, and it scares the hell out of me, but I don't think banning a symbol will put an end to it.
This morning you've got time for a hot, home-cooked breakfast! Delicious and piping hot in only 3 microwave minutes.
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selfmademug
Well, I will certainly defer to a Pole (invisible or not! 
) on the Hammer and Sickle. The association (between symbol and the deaths of millions of humans) is different but it makes sense that it's as strong. What I mean about the association being different is that because the swastika 'refers to' deaths of specific types of people-- Jews primarily of course, but you Europeans can tell me whether the young fascists are using the symbol against Muslim Turks in Germany, e.g.-- it amounts to a death threat. It screams out, "We still want to kill you, and given the chance, we will". I'm too ignorant of the climate and events in Eastern Europe to know whether the Hammer and Sickle are used in this way-- if not, it doesn't make the symbol less offensive, just different.
I don't think any of these symbols should be banned. I just think the immediate and strong reaction to those who choose to display them is warranted.
) on the Hammer and Sickle. The association (between symbol and the deaths of millions of humans) is different but it makes sense that it's as strong. What I mean about the association being different is that because the swastika 'refers to' deaths of specific types of people-- Jews primarily of course, but you Europeans can tell me whether the young fascists are using the symbol against Muslim Turks in Germany, e.g.-- it amounts to a death threat. It screams out, "We still want to kill you, and given the chance, we will". I'm too ignorant of the climate and events in Eastern Europe to know whether the Hammer and Sickle are used in this way-- if not, it doesn't make the symbol less offensive, just different.I don't think any of these symbols should be banned. I just think the immediate and strong reaction to those who choose to display them is warranted.
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A rope leash
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What shall we do, what shall we do, with all this useless..
Yep, wearing a swastika is just asking for a fight. Maybe not in some areas of Tuscaloosa, but…
Well, it was a “Colonial and Native” themed party. That shows you royal thinking right there: Sensitivity to little people who might be offended by a symbol of their horror is not considered appropriate.
Well, I’ve got a Nazi flag hanging on the wall of my garage. You can call home and ask my wife. My dad confiscated it during WWII. My brother thinks it’s okay to hang it, as long as it isn’t prominent. What am I supposed to do about that? We got a whole collection of old Nazi war shit. Should I burn it?
It’s not really my garage, it’s the Goat Hill communal shop. I was stretching for a joke.
Tell me I’m trying..
Although I am loath to admit it, my agnostic rejection of religion probably makes me an anti-Semite in some circles. But, I don’t just hate Jews; I hate almost everyone else, too.
Except you guys.
What I don’t get is when we confuse a religion with a state. Israel is a “Jewish state”, which is okay, but we’re not so sure about “Muslim states”. Israel is a rather brutal state, folks, and I’m sorry that many of them are Jews and that Jews have a sad history, but I don’t think that Jews are in any immediate danger of being genocided again. Muslims, on the other hand, had better keep an eye out.
Seriously.
The US gives billions to Israel, even though the US population of Jews is about two percent. They don’t get the money because they are Jewish, they get the money because of where they are. The US has made a virtual 51st state out of Israel, and armed it to the teeth. There is never any hope for peace, for Israel and the US have sullied reputations due to their brutal militaristic tactics. It’s Forever War now, just like many Christians and the Zionists “foresaw”. To be critical of Israel and of the US relationship with Israel, or to be suspicious of Zionist influence is not the same as being hateful towards Jews, but the media often makes it seem this way.
The Native Americans basically had to settle for small plots of land in which they could preserve not just their culture, but also their race. Had they continued to resist, we might have made them extinct. One atrocity is no more horrible than another, though The Learning Channel might someday do a top-ten show on the subject.
It’s in the past. No one is asking anyone to forget it. Banning the symbols of it will not help to keep it from happening again, in fact, it will make better the chances that something else evil with new symbols will emerge. You can’t learn from history if you bury it, and you can’t really bury history because the past is fixed.
http://www.geocities.com/aropeleash/JD.jpg
My father, who brought home all that Nazi loot, said that the German townsfolk were aghast at what they were shown at the death camps. I can show everyone a website that attempts to prove that the photos from the death camps were actually selected Germans killed by Churchill and Stalin after the war, punished, as it were, or would be. It’s an insult to my father, who would never participate in something like that.
At least, I don’t think he would have. He often spoke derisively of both Germans and Russians. I don’t think he had much respect for them, other than a respect for their craftsmanship and artistry, which was a respect borne out of battle. My old man was not the type to glorify any sort of fascism, much less one he fought four years to bring to an end.
Let not the past distract us from what is happening now.
Well, it was a “Colonial and Native” themed party. That shows you royal thinking right there: Sensitivity to little people who might be offended by a symbol of their horror is not considered appropriate.
Well, I’ve got a Nazi flag hanging on the wall of my garage. You can call home and ask my wife. My dad confiscated it during WWII. My brother thinks it’s okay to hang it, as long as it isn’t prominent. What am I supposed to do about that? We got a whole collection of old Nazi war shit. Should I burn it?
It’s not really my garage, it’s the Goat Hill communal shop. I was stretching for a joke.
Tell me I’m trying..
Although I am loath to admit it, my agnostic rejection of religion probably makes me an anti-Semite in some circles. But, I don’t just hate Jews; I hate almost everyone else, too.
Except you guys.
What I don’t get is when we confuse a religion with a state. Israel is a “Jewish state”, which is okay, but we’re not so sure about “Muslim states”. Israel is a rather brutal state, folks, and I’m sorry that many of them are Jews and that Jews have a sad history, but I don’t think that Jews are in any immediate danger of being genocided again. Muslims, on the other hand, had better keep an eye out.
Seriously.
The US gives billions to Israel, even though the US population of Jews is about two percent. They don’t get the money because they are Jewish, they get the money because of where they are. The US has made a virtual 51st state out of Israel, and armed it to the teeth. There is never any hope for peace, for Israel and the US have sullied reputations due to their brutal militaristic tactics. It’s Forever War now, just like many Christians and the Zionists “foresaw”. To be critical of Israel and of the US relationship with Israel, or to be suspicious of Zionist influence is not the same as being hateful towards Jews, but the media often makes it seem this way.
The Native Americans basically had to settle for small plots of land in which they could preserve not just their culture, but also their race. Had they continued to resist, we might have made them extinct. One atrocity is no more horrible than another, though The Learning Channel might someday do a top-ten show on the subject.
It’s in the past. No one is asking anyone to forget it. Banning the symbols of it will not help to keep it from happening again, in fact, it will make better the chances that something else evil with new symbols will emerge. You can’t learn from history if you bury it, and you can’t really bury history because the past is fixed.
http://www.geocities.com/aropeleash/JD.jpg
My father, who brought home all that Nazi loot, said that the German townsfolk were aghast at what they were shown at the death camps. I can show everyone a website that attempts to prove that the photos from the death camps were actually selected Germans killed by Churchill and Stalin after the war, punished, as it were, or would be. It’s an insult to my father, who would never participate in something like that.
At least, I don’t think he would have. He often spoke derisively of both Germans and Russians. I don’t think he had much respect for them, other than a respect for their craftsmanship and artistry, which was a respect borne out of battle. My old man was not the type to glorify any sort of fascism, much less one he fought four years to bring to an end.
Let not the past distract us from what is happening now.
Invisible Pole: I too lived under communism for a number of years until my family were granted asylum in the US, and having gone to school in this country in the 70s and 80s prior to the fall of the Berlin Wall I was always put off by the fact that communist symbols of the time (the hammer and cicle; the CCCP shirts,: the Che paraphernelia) were bandied about as evidence of chic cultural sophistication, when by then anyone with an open mind was aware of the atrocities committed by Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Fidel and their surrogates and should have know better than to glorify their symbols. I don't think it was ignorance. There was a real unwillingness then to face the reality of communism. Evidence of oppression was always met with a reference to "social rights" or to "capitalist oppression" or "the availability of free education and health care" or some other justification. To the young in the West (not exclusively the young but mostly them) these symbols, and communism in general, signified rebellion against the middle class cultures that spawned them. Since capitalism was unjust, and communism was the enemy of capitalism, well, then, communism had to be good. Mind you, put anyone of them in a work camp in Cuba (compulsory for all kiddies during the summer recesses back in the late 60s) for a week and they would have been yelling for their mommies. By the way, the majority of these radical chicsters of the 70s and 80s are now firmly entrenched in corporate America, and will every once in a while at parties pull out old polaroids to show how hip they once were. It was all harmless in the end, for them that is. For the people who had to live under these oppressive regimes, glorified by the then lefty youngsters, the harm was real.
Having said that, I don't think we should ban swatstikas or hammers and sickles. If idiots want to wear them, let them. Private organizations, so long as they are not inciting others to violence, should be allowed to form and praise whomever they wish. As Mug says, if their message is hateful, they should be taken on. But we should raise objections if our leaders wear them, even in jest. That I think is the reason Harry got in trouble. He's not your average party-goer and his connection to the State take his actions out of the private and into the public realm. There are many instances of political correctness which go too far, but this one does not.
Having said that, I don't think we should ban swatstikas or hammers and sickles. If idiots want to wear them, let them. Private organizations, so long as they are not inciting others to violence, should be allowed to form and praise whomever they wish. As Mug says, if their message is hateful, they should be taken on. But we should raise objections if our leaders wear them, even in jest. That I think is the reason Harry got in trouble. He's not your average party-goer and his connection to the State take his actions out of the private and into the public realm. There are many instances of political correctness which go too far, but this one does not.
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bambooneedle
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The reaction can be strong, but why should they especially rankle? They symbols are everywhere, just like those of religions.edit: hadn't 'quoted' this when I wrote:I don't think any of these symbols should be banned. I just think the immediate and strong reaction to those who choose to display them is warranted.
Last edited by bambooneedle on Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.
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selfmademug
But Boo, they're entirely different in meaning to a symbol of a religion, how can you not see that? Rankle!? They terrify. Terrify, as in terrorism. They threaten, they suppress. These are symbols of hatred, symbols that mean, as explicitly as something not in words can mean, "I want you dead." Or at the very least, "I support those who killed all your family." Yes, millions of people have been killed in the name of the Cross (I'd guess) but that is not the primary meaning of the Cross. The primary, specific meaning of the Swastika was promoting a German state in which the only role for Jews (and Romani and gay folks, and the mentally ill, and the disabled) was as corpses.bambooneedle wrote: The reaction can be strong, but why should they especially rankle? They symbols are everywhere, just like those of religions.
As for keeping Nazi paraphernalia, it's a personal decision, but yes, I'd throw it out. You certainly wouldn't want to sell it, as the collectors of such things are sympathizers, and what value can it hold? Sentimental that your Dad brought it back? Aren't there other mementos from his service? I think I know why GIs brought these things back (my dad brought back a German machine gun he found while he was serving in the infantry in France, though he ended up giving it 'back' to the Army): a feeling of conquest, a reminder that yes, it was all horribly real. But what their meaning to this generation is, I can't really ponder. There's plenty of such stuff in museum and books. There's nothing precious about them.
For the record, I am pro-Israel in the same way I am pro-America-- I support the right to existence of, and the importance of, the state, and I support and respect its people. However, on many issue--maybe most?--I disagree strongly with the current political powers holding forth, in both the US and Israel.
Who was it who said something like, There is always a simple solution to every problem, and it is nearly always wrong?
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invisible Pole
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laughingcrow
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I think we all see sense...obviously there is no defense in anyone advocating any form of tyranny, or being a proponent of any dead fascists...but banning the symbols isn't really necessary. Normal people do walk about wearing 'hammer and sickle' or 'confederate flags' without realising they might offend some people...they shouldn't be jailed for it.
Here's a case in point...it means 'good luck' to the predominantly-Hindu
Association of Surgeons of India....
If people want to hold fascist views, they'll just use other symbols...e.g. celtic crosses and runes are used by the BNP over here, in germany neo-nazis use the 8-ball from pool as a symbol with 2 eights (8 being the eight letter of the alphabet...code for HH). If we ban these symbols they become totemic to people as well, and I think civilised society loses something.
Here's a case in point...it means 'good luck' to the predominantly-Hindu
Association of Surgeons of India....
If people want to hold fascist views, they'll just use other symbols...e.g. celtic crosses and runes are used by the BNP over here, in germany neo-nazis use the 8-ball from pool as a symbol with 2 eights (8 being the eight letter of the alphabet...code for HH). If we ban these symbols they become totemic to people as well, and I think civilised society loses something.
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Mr. Average
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Love the use of the word "totemic".
That being said, I agree. Once banned, they will appear with far greater frequency, and be celebrated as an indicant of individuality by people who have no understanding whatsoever as to the historical significance of brandishing the logo/icon/insignia associated with a despot, a tyrannical regime, or a murderous culture with pan-humanistic intentions.
Isn't all a function of education? If an individual wears the symbol in public...an individual who SHOULD have the pertinent educational background to know better, then they brandish the sign as a direct function of either ignorance or niavete'. I suspect that most who wear these types of incendiary logos and insignias are niave, as they fail to grasp the significance because they have never been properly taught. On the other hand, if I prance out of my Sou Cal hovel with a swastika on my back, I am simply ignorant to the facts and have CHOSEN to trivialize the tragic history associated with the insignia in order to draw attention to myself.
Was the prince ignorant, or naive?
That being said, I agree. Once banned, they will appear with far greater frequency, and be celebrated as an indicant of individuality by people who have no understanding whatsoever as to the historical significance of brandishing the logo/icon/insignia associated with a despot, a tyrannical regime, or a murderous culture with pan-humanistic intentions.
Isn't all a function of education? If an individual wears the symbol in public...an individual who SHOULD have the pertinent educational background to know better, then they brandish the sign as a direct function of either ignorance or niavete'. I suspect that most who wear these types of incendiary logos and insignias are niave, as they fail to grasp the significance because they have never been properly taught. On the other hand, if I prance out of my Sou Cal hovel with a swastika on my back, I am simply ignorant to the facts and have CHOSEN to trivialize the tragic history associated with the insignia in order to draw attention to myself.
Was the prince ignorant, or naive?
"The smarter mysteries are hidden in the light" - Jean Giono (1895-1970)
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Copenhagen Fan
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My guess is that the Price was trying to be funny, like Monty Python in a Hogan's Heros type of way. It didn't fly.
While the Nazi and Commie symbols don't really offend me personally, I can truly understand that they offend and scare other people. This stuff is still taboo in Europe as people want to bury them and make sure it never happens again. As a child, I was obsessed with playing soldier, and my great grandfather had a bunch of Nazi stuff he had liberated during WWII, including a Nazi helmet with a bullet hole in it and other stuff like that. He was actually a 3rd generation German-American, and he fought in the war as a tank commander in the Battle of the Bulge.
As a child there were all of the big war movies. The Longest Day, Kelly's Heros, The Dirty Dusin, The Great Escape ect. I remember thinking as a young boy that the Germans always had the cooler uniforms. As I learned more about the subject and then much later studied History, ( I majored in Russian History) I realized that this was a part of the strategy of the totalitarian nature of these types of movements. Propaganda and the creation of an Image and Icon building. So if you look at the uniforms and symbols of both the Nazis and Soviets, you will notice that they are carefully and maticulously designed to convey power and be attractive and compelling in a sort of brainwashing type of way. You have to admit that some of the things they created were rather artistic and attractive from a purely astetic point of view. Very seductive in a way and that's the whole idea behind the design of these things. I still think the Germans had the much cooler astetic sense for their uniforms and design, but we still have to understand that these things have transended to become MUCH more than just uniforms and the like....they are powerful symbols, and for much of Europe they are symbols of EVIL and genocide!
While the Nazi and Commie symbols don't really offend me personally, I can truly understand that they offend and scare other people. This stuff is still taboo in Europe as people want to bury them and make sure it never happens again. As a child, I was obsessed with playing soldier, and my great grandfather had a bunch of Nazi stuff he had liberated during WWII, including a Nazi helmet with a bullet hole in it and other stuff like that. He was actually a 3rd generation German-American, and he fought in the war as a tank commander in the Battle of the Bulge.
As a child there were all of the big war movies. The Longest Day, Kelly's Heros, The Dirty Dusin, The Great Escape ect. I remember thinking as a young boy that the Germans always had the cooler uniforms. As I learned more about the subject and then much later studied History, ( I majored in Russian History) I realized that this was a part of the strategy of the totalitarian nature of these types of movements. Propaganda and the creation of an Image and Icon building. So if you look at the uniforms and symbols of both the Nazis and Soviets, you will notice that they are carefully and maticulously designed to convey power and be attractive and compelling in a sort of brainwashing type of way. You have to admit that some of the things they created were rather artistic and attractive from a purely astetic point of view. Very seductive in a way and that's the whole idea behind the design of these things. I still think the Germans had the much cooler astetic sense for their uniforms and design, but we still have to understand that these things have transended to become MUCH more than just uniforms and the like....they are powerful symbols, and for much of Europe they are symbols of EVIL and genocide!
I'd never leave the house if I had a Gimp
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bambooneedle
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Cope, good points about German design and aesthetics.
It's no surprise that the Nazis should look so good with Germany having had such a rich design culture. Though Nazi symbolism (uniforms, architecture, weaponry, vehicles...) could be a few degrees more stylized than early C20th German design functionalism, it shared elements of style (often beautiful-- just the simplest, purest, most functional, efficient, and pleasing to look at things ever designed in terms of everyday product design-- just look at the still unimprovable works of Marcel Breuer or Mies van der Rohe, or at Ferdinand Porsche's Volkswagen Beetle) and its potency typically evident there then. There was just never anything half-assed or tacky. So Hitler would not have had to look far for designers who could achieve what he wanted, even if they did so fearfully. German design, like any other design, would have been an intrinsic part of the economic and political system of the country it functions in, affected by its dominant ideology and its other particular constraints. Porsche was later jailed by the French, Hitler having commissioned 'the people's car'... After WW2 German design was obsessively emulated by the USA, Japan, Italy, England, et al. And since the Bauhaus it has consistently been among the very best in the world. Russia had also had a strongly influential Constructivist design tradition.
Hitler's Car
It's no surprise that the Nazis should look so good with Germany having had such a rich design culture. Though Nazi symbolism (uniforms, architecture, weaponry, vehicles...) could be a few degrees more stylized than early C20th German design functionalism, it shared elements of style (often beautiful-- just the simplest, purest, most functional, efficient, and pleasing to look at things ever designed in terms of everyday product design-- just look at the still unimprovable works of Marcel Breuer or Mies van der Rohe, or at Ferdinand Porsche's Volkswagen Beetle) and its potency typically evident there then. There was just never anything half-assed or tacky. So Hitler would not have had to look far for designers who could achieve what he wanted, even if they did so fearfully. German design, like any other design, would have been an intrinsic part of the economic and political system of the country it functions in, affected by its dominant ideology and its other particular constraints. Porsche was later jailed by the French, Hitler having commissioned 'the people's car'... After WW2 German design was obsessively emulated by the USA, Japan, Italy, England, et al. And since the Bauhaus it has consistently been among the very best in the world. Russia had also had a strongly influential Constructivist design tradition.
Hitler's Car
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bambooneedle
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The meaning wouldn't be that entirely different to those slaughtered in the name of religion or God for similar reasons. Just because "they're different". Religions and 'beliefs' are more insidious, though.selfmademug wrote:But Boo, they're entirely different in meaning to a symbol of a religion, how can you not see that? Rankle!? They terrify. Terrify, as in terrorism. They threaten, they suppress. These are symbols of hatred, symbols that mean, as explicitly as something not in words can mean, "I want you dead." Or at the very least, "I support those who killed all your family." Yes, millions of people have been killed in the name of the Cross (I'd guess) but that is not the primary meaning of the Cross. The primary, specific meaning of the Swastika was promoting a German state in which the only role for Jews (and Romani and gay folks, and the mentally ill, and the disabled) was as corpses.
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selfmademug
Well, I've more or less given up on trying to make myself understood. The point is that no one weilds those other symbols specificaly to say "I want to kill you."
There are a lot of smart and interesting people on this board, but I guess I shouldn't be bothered to have these political discussions here anymore. For example I vowed never to reply to Mr. A's posts, so I will just have to let him be the defender of "our" culture (you know, the one those damn immigrants are ruining).
I'm an atheist, but if I can't even make it clear to other non-believers that religion is not a monolithic enemy, I guess I give up.
There are a lot of smart and interesting people on this board, but I guess I shouldn't be bothered to have these political discussions here anymore. For example I vowed never to reply to Mr. A's posts, so I will just have to let him be the defender of "our" culture (you know, the one those damn immigrants are ruining).
I'm an atheist, but if I can't even make it clear to other non-believers that religion is not a monolithic enemy, I guess I give up.
I agree with Ms. Mug, the Nazis were never about anything besides annihilating other races and creating an Aryan planet.
While pretty much every religion has murdered in the name of their religion, there is no religion that is totally about murdering people of all other religions.
While pretty much every religion has murdered in the name of their religion, there is no religion that is totally about murdering people of all other religions.
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bambooneedle
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Mug- I understand and understood your points. I wasn't overlooking them, just making different points and speaking for myself.selfmademug wrote:Well, I've more or less given up on trying to make myself understood. The point is that no one weilds those other symbols specificaly to say "I want to kill you."
I was thinking that the symbols only have as much power as somebody gives them. If Nazi symbolism may be about blind hate based on ignorance, then, yes, why should it especially rankle? Ie. I'd tend not to be afraid of it BECAUSE it's so clearly dumb, and because I'm too aware that to give them power is what the ignorant hope. That's my position.
The religion analogy was to undersore mainly the point that what is read into symbols depends.selfmademug wrote:but I guess I shouldn't be bothered to have these political discussions
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I'm an atheist, but if I can't even make it clear to other non-believers that religion is not a monolithic enemy, I guess I give up.
Since religions have brainwashed and disempowered people so much, insidiously exploiting susceptibility to the worst and most twisted forms of ignorance, hate, suffering and oppression, I made the analogy. What the symbols represent can be just as dangerous depending on how power may be given up. But, yeah, Nazis are bolder.
No, they just have always asserted that everyone else deserves to burn in hell for all eternity or something like that...BlueChair wrote:While pretty much every religion has murdered in the name of their religion, there is no religion that is totally about murdering people of all other religions.