Baseball's back

oily slick · Post by **oily slick** » Thu Mar 16, 2006 7:04 pm

i'm not a designer steroid expert cause i have such disdain for the whole thing, so i don't know how a steroid can help a pitcher with strength and control, but not add size and hinder flexibilty, but roger clemens has a rigorous routine. and he is not at the peak of his career by any means, though he did a have a low era last year. but there have always been freaks. warren spahn won as many games as he ever won in a season at age 42. cy young won 21, with 1.26 era over 300 innings at 41. carlton fisk could squat 130-some games a year as a regular catcher in multiple seasons in his early 40s. ted williams hit 388 at 38, the second highest of his career, though the wars likely messed that up. ty cobb was still hitting 350 and stealing bases at 40. there is a lot of dough to be made nowadays as a reason to hang around and try to stay fit. i don't know who is juicing other than the obvious. now about 20 years ago when he was in his late 80's my grandfather and i were looking at a game and he said "none of em can pitch 9 innings anymore". and i said "why do you suppose that is?" and he said "they're all on drugs". so you may be right.

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:29 am

I love tallking baseball, especially when we can talk about Cobb, Williams and Spahn. Ty Cobb did indeed hit .357 when he was into his 40's, however this mark is under his career average of .366. Ted Williams had a remarkable year in 1957 at the age of 38 - hitting .388 and hitting 38 homers - (not his best year, but among his best) and Spahn did win more than 20 games 2 or 3 times after 40. A lot of pitchers get better as they get older because they get smarter, they almost never throw harder as they get older. Earlier in his career Spahn was a power pitcher, leading the league in strikeouts four straight years, later on he was still striking guys out, but not like he did in his 20's and 30's. Clemens' strikeouts per nine innings in '04 were better than any season, save one, in his 20's - the guy got stronger (and smarter too).....I don't know who uses steroids and who doesn't - a couple of years ago Manny Alexander - a utility infielder with no pop was caught with syringes in his glove compartment....I just think this whole era is muddied.....and yes Clemens' work outs are legendary, but so were Bonds. One of the things that steroids helps you with is the recovery time between workouts - they let you work out longer and more often. It used to be you could make fair comparisons between players from the 20's and current players, which you really couldn't do in the other sports. Steroids has ruined that.

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 10:40 am

Boy With A Problem wrote:It used to be you could make fair comparisons between players from the 20's and current players, which you really couldn't do in the other sports. Steroids has ruined that.

There are a few other factors that have contributed to this:

-The lowering of the pitchers mound after the Koufax, Gibson era
-The shrinking dimensions of ballparks and wealth of hitters' parks (it's unfortunate that they've decided to monkey with some of the new "pitchers' parks", such as San Diego and Detroit, to pump up the home run totals)
-Ridiculously tight strike zones
-Expansion, which means that there are a lot of AAA-level pitchers playing regularly in the bigs

The list goes on. I'm also convinced that they've been juicing the ball, despite denials from MLB.

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:06 pm

I would agree with those arguments, but I think steroids have had a huge influence, especially with home runs. Consider that from 1901 to 1994 the mark of 50 home runs in a season was reached 17 times. From 1995 through last season it has been reached 20 times.

alexv · Post by **alexv** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:15 pm

Guys, I am not a baseball expert, though a fan, but I've always found it difficult to compare pre-50s baseball to post 50s primarily because of the absence in the pre-50s era of black and latin ballplayers. Given the dominance of those two groups in today's game, how can the stats of the white players of that time be considered truly legitimate? Also, what about those gloves they wore, and the fact that you had no relievers of note. Gotta believe that those factors influenced the higher batting averages. Nevertheless, I think the Williams' 388 at the tail end of his career, in an era which already was the beginning of the modern era has to be one of the outstanding accomplishments in the game. Musial I think also finished up in the early 60s with gaudy numbers, a testament to his greatness.

On the steroids, agree with the comments on the pitchers. A guy like Clemens just seems to me to be artificially enhanced. My favorite though is Barry. I laugh when his apologists bring up weight lifiting and training. Come on!! Look at the size of his head, not his neck or biceps, his head. His head has exploded in size. I have feared for some time that he might very well blow up. As far as I know there is no known training regimen that can cause an increase in the size of your head. Of course, I think the racial double standard is at play here, since McGuire was equally gargantuan, and filled with steroid-acne, and even today, the criticism levelled at him is muted in comparison to what Barry gets. Not to excuse Barry who is a cretin, by most accounts. By the way, one guy who gets lost in this discussion is Griffey, who is spectacularly steroid free, and whose career, terrific as it has been, in spite of injuries, has been lost in the shadows. He could have done what these cheaters did, and did not. Credit to him.

Hope that league participation is not a requirement to posting on this thread.

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 12:23 pm

alexv wrote:Hope that league participation is not a requirement to posting on this thread.

Certainly not - good points, and well taken. I'm glad to see that the HOF has started to induct Negro League players in larger numbers.

oily slick · Post by **oily slick** » Fri Mar 17, 2006 6:41 pm

control is a bunch of what strikeouts is about. so with nolan ryan, perhaps the best late life sports freak, and koufax, same deal. ryan's best whip year was near the end--mid-forties no less. i just don't see clemens as a juicer. and i don't like him. nolan ryan would run in his swimming pool. creatine is legal and it will also extend your workouts, enhance your recovery, and improve movements requiring short bursts of energy.

nice discussion. the too many teams excuse we always hear i don't buy though. there are half again as many people in the US now as there was in 1960 and there are half again as many major league baseball teams. and now there is an influx of talented people from outside our borders. there are not as many minor league clubs, but the opportunity as in conditions, programs, equipment for youth to develop in is exponentially better. conspiracy-wise, i'm a ball mistruster. the ball in 68 was different. clemente hit 291 as opposed to 357 in 67. it was rampant; look about anyone up. something was going on and continues to vary by year. african american dominance is dying as quickly as it rose. we can't get black youth to play and the number of black major leaguers is on the fast decline. but we're getting more international. no, you will never be able to compare eras again. that is for certain.

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:59 pm

Koufax didn't pitch past the age of 30, but it's true that his last few years were his best.

Baseball just isn't the national game that it used to be. Football and basketball take a lot of the best athletes away from baseball in a way they didn't 30 or 40 years ago.

oily slick · Post by **oily slick** » Sat Mar 18, 2006 1:43 pm

sorry. no wonder i've been accused of being unclear in cyberspace. the koufax reference was supposed to connect with finding control. ineffective though blazing his first 5 or 6 years, he got into the hall of fame on the strength of his last 5 or 6 once he figured out how to pitch. i was trying to liken control to ryan's improvement and, to lesser degree, freak boy roger.

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Fri Mar 24, 2006 2:46 pm

I'll be switching the league status to "Ready" tomorrow morning Eastern Time, so get your player rankings set. The draft will occur soon after that, and Yahoo! should notify you once your team has been selected.

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:52 am

Any news on the official draft time? Will this be covered live on ESPN6? What determined the draft order?

Over a few beers last weekend owners of the B-Waps and New Goon Wankees agreed that Sad Burlesque will be the team to beat this year.

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:56 am

Boy With A Problem wrote:Any news on the official draft time? Will this be covered live on ESPN6? What determined the draft order?

Over a few beers last weekend owners of the B-Waps and New Goon Wankees agreed that Sad Burlesque will be the team to beat this year.

No respect for the Champions? I feel dissed.

Yahoo! will auto-draft sometime before Wednesday. The draft order is totally random - and those fuckers at ESPN have pre-empted draft coverage in favor of March Madness.

Goody2Shoes · Post by **Goody2Shoes** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:29 am

Sad Burlesque may be the team to beat, but the owner of Sox & Shoes has set the lofty goal of improving upon last year's performance by not finishing last!

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:39 am

No respect for the Champions? I feel dissed.

Total respect for the champions! - I just think that Sad Burlesque has spent more time preparing for this season than the rest of us. I don't know this - it's just a hunch. I'm sure we'll all pay a lot more attention to our rotations this year - precious innings!

I just hope I don't get beat by any icky girls!

or any dodgy brits!

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:41 am

Boy With A Problem wrote:Total respect for the champions! - I just think that Sad Burlesque has spent more time preparing for this season than the rest of us. I don't know this - it's just a hunch.

You're probably right. I can see him poring over the Sporting News Fanstasy Baseball preview issue.

oily slick · Post by **oily slick** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:42 pm

actually i stuck the pages together.

hot dang the draft is over! i got vlad, arod, albert, chone, miguel, manny, andruw, bench and drysdale, sad burlesque is on it's way. now if only i wasn't baffled by the tennessee minister's murder...

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:15 pm

Drysdale owns the inside half.

oily slick · Post by **oily slick** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 2:48 pm

i think you're so acute.

Post by **BlueChair** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:14 pm

The draft isn't over yet... so all of those players are mine.. MINE!

Goody2Shoes · Post by **Goody2Shoes** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:57 pm

No, Bluechair, I'm taking Drysdale and Bench for my all deads-and-nearly-deads team. You can have the others, though.

oily slick · Post by **oily slick** » Sat Mar 25, 2006 10:51 pm

oh, and for a closer i got Eck. i was talkin w/ Tony here in st louis the other day, you know--legal advice, pet care tips, pasta pointers--and he is still big on Eck. huge. i see goody got hoyt. wilhelm, not waite.

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 4:29 am

I get Dummy Hoy http://www.dummyhoy.com/

and Puddin' Head Jones

and Oil Can Boyd

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Sun Mar 26, 2006 5:14 am

The draft has happened - not sure that this is going to be the B-Waps year what with the distractions of Barry and Jason in the same clubhouse - but Ichiro returns...and I'm making roster moves and proposing trades while you're all asleep...

Goody2Shoes · Post by **Goody2Shoes** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 7:30 pm

oily slick wrote: i see goody got hoyt. wilhelm, not waite.

If he's dead, or nearly dead, I'll take him.

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:16 pm

Boy With A Problem wrote:I get Dummy Hoy http://www.dummyhoy.com/

and Puddin' Head Jones

and Oil Can Boyd

That's nothing. I got Don Mossi...

and Oscar Gamble