9/11- God bless them all

Gillibeanz · Post by **Gillibeanz** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:10 am

Remembering all those who died in the twin towers and planes today. May God bless them all, and help their families through this harrowing day and every day that they have had to endure without their loved ones.

so lacklustre · Post by **so lacklustre** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:01 pm

Which God are you referring to?

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:04 pm

I echo your feelings, Gilli, no matter which God you mean.

We all have our ways of thinking, and the feelings on the issues of 9/11 may well be as divisive as they are painful. For myself, 9/11 is an event that will forever help me appreciate human suffering in general, bring it closer to my heart so that I can never become inured to it. It seems to me that we Americans felt quite invulnerable here in this wealthy, isolated country, and that the events of that day five years ago brought us into the world in a way that has changed everything.

Like a lot of people, I've been thinking about where I was when I heard the news, how those hours unfolded, what the weather was like--was there ever a more beautiful September day, with that intense dark blue cloudless sky?-- everything. And I've been thinking about the many forms of sadness, fear and outrage that I felt and still feel, that millions felt and still do feel. I think about survivors who lost a loved one, or who witnessed people jumping from the towers or who have other horrific images that will never leave them, and about people who were devastated in countless other ways. My heart is with them.

Emotional Toothpaste · Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:40 pm

Right on Gilli. God bless them all. I'm every bit as angry about 9/11 as I was 5 years ago.

But looking back. . . . I'm angry that we STILL don't have Osama. I'm angry that we're bogged down in Iraq. I'm angry that I really don't feel any safer. I'm angry that we are too hamstrung with ridiculous political-correctness to racially profile and go after the type of people who we all know commit these kind of crimes. I'm angry that we aren't conducting a far more brutal war on terror. I'm angry that our country is too lazy and corrupt to take the hard steps necessary to ween itself of oil dependency.

Thats about all the rant I can muster right now, but theres more where that came from.

LessThanZero · Post by **LessThanZero** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:23 pm

Do we racially profile white people in rented trucks? No. I honestly don't think racial profiling is the answer to terrorism....

Gillibeanz · Post by **Gillibeanz** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:44 pm

so lacklustre wrote:Which God are you referring to?

Does it really matter?

Emotional Toothpaste · Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:51 pm

I honestly don't think racial profiling is the answer to terrorism..

Never said it was "the answer". Just disappointed that our attempts to be PC have pushed us to the margins of stupidity. Tell me with a straight face, LTZ, who would you feel more comfortable to see boarding your plane . . . a group of caucasian grandmas, or a group of middle-eastern looking young men? And given the overwhelming task airport security has -- they simply can't treat everyone with equal and unbiased amounts of suspicion.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 7:57 pm

Good post, Gilli. Thanks.

stormwarning · Post by **stormwarning** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 8:50 pm

Emotional Toothpaste wrote: I'm angry that we are too hamstrung with ridiculous political-correctness to racially profile and go after the type of people who we all know commit these kind of crimes.

I had to read this three times to realise it wasn't some kind of sick joke. Hey why not build more detention centres and lock up every muslim-looking male between 18 and 40? Five years on and people still don't learn, that's the sad part.

I was at WTC today and really don't need comments like yours to tarnish what has been a day of genuine emotion.

Post by **spooky girlfriend** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 9:14 pm

Watching those film clips on television today was so different than seeing them for the first time - live - 5 years ago. We now trust a little less, assume the worst a little more than we used to. Our country has changed so much since then.

Racism deserves no place in our country - to any race for any reason.

Emotional Toothpaste · Mon Sep 11, 2006 10:18 pm

Take a close look at these photos of the 9/11 hijackers:

http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/aa11/11.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/aa77/77.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/ua93/93.htm
http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/penttbom/ua175/175.htm

Check your facts on the major terrorist attacks since 9/11: Madrid, London, Bali, you name it. http://www.abcnews.go.com/US/popup?id=2401470

Look at the major plot that was thwarted last month in London involving up to 10 different aircraft.

Of all these events . . . how many were carried out by blue-haired grandmas from Wichita? No, I think if you wrote their names down, their approximate age, race, and sex, nationality . . . the proverbial village idiot could see a pattern.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not at all racist, and I'm all for the notion of presumed innocence until proven guilty. And I have NO problem with being inconvenienced at the airport.

Lets just call it "profiling", and not attach the word "racial" to it. Would that sit easier with everyone?

Cops do it all the time, and whether you like it or not, on a certain level, and under much different circumstances, all of us do it too.

God bless the victims of 9/11 and let us not forget who and what we are at war against. My apologies for offending anyone with my comments here. It is a day of genuine emotion for all of us.

stormwarning · Post by **stormwarning** » Mon Sep 11, 2006 11:27 pm

Stop now. You're just making it worse.

Tim(e) · Post by **Tim(e)** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:29 am

Yes, it was a terrible tradgedy and yes, we should take time to remember all of those who died, but lets also take the time to think of the hundreds who die every month in Iraq and Afghanistan... they also have loved ones who are missing them just as much and unlike the rest of us, they have no respite from the terror, terror that has escalated as a result of the war on terror that began after 9/11.

Anyone who believes that their lot has improved since dubya's war on terror began are kidding themselves. Anyone who believes they had it worse under Saddam are also kidding themselves.

Sorry to put a dampener on this post, but I believe a little perspective is called for.

Post by **BlueChair** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:44 am

Perspective indeed. All those people who died on 9/11 were doing was flying somewhere, or going to work. Considering most of them were in one of the most liberal cities in North America, I don't think any of them "had it coming" as some narrow-minded people might argue. I definitely think they ought to be kept in our memories. I can only feel sorry for those who lost someone close to them that day. Every year they will be reminded of their loss with images of planes hitting buildings.

But on the other hand I agree with Tim(e), the same is true of the thousands of casualties in Iraq and Afghanistan, whether it be U.S. or international soldiers or innocent civilians.

Still, yesterday was the 5th anniversary of 9/11... so I think we all owe it to ourselves to light a candle to remember how united we were with the U.S. after it happened.

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:04 pm

Tim(e) wrote:Anyone who believes they had it worse under Saddam are also kidding themselves.

That seems a bit presumptuous, frankly. Did you live in Iraq? Many Iraqis might agree with you but I'd prefer to hear it from them, not from someone who's no closer to the situation than I am here.

As for perspective, I don't think anyone in this thread has written anything that would discourage mourning for the hundreds of thousands of other people on this planet who may be oppressed or dead due to any one of a number of global conflicts, including, yes, lots with U.S. involvement. Lots of us think of those deaths every single day, to say nothing of the anger we feel at the offensive charade Bush has made of his 'response' to 9/11.

I wonder if you would have written something comparable if we were marking the 5th anniversary of the bombing of the Sydney Opera House (which wouldn't even compare anyway) where people you'd known personally were killed or had lost loved ones.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:17 pm

Mourning the loss of those who died in 9/11 shouldn't be politicized. It's one of the reasons I can't stand Bush and his administration that he spins 9/11 to his political advantage all the time. Comparing the attack to the loss of life in Iarq, Afghanistan, etc. doesn't diminish the loss on 9/11. So what if there have been more deaths in the war than there were on 9/11? Making it a numbers game cheapens the losses all around. It's not a contest. If 100 people had died on 9/11, it would have been a pointless, tragic loss and a result of murderous bullshit. If only 100 soldiers and civilians (you'll excuse me if I can't shed any tears for actual dead terrorists) had died so far in the war, it would be a tragic loss and a result of a war largely brought about by lies and deceit. We should mourn both, and we should stop the one we have any control over as soon as possible. But what sense does it make to say that the loss of lives on 9/11 is somehow tempered by the equal or greater loss of life since then? How does that change the devastation of that terrible day?

Post by **BlueChair** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:23 pm

Here, here

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 3:55 pm

What he said.

As for racial profiling, the idea's not merely offensive (and it is that) but ridiculous. People who want to do us harm will find ways to do it; you missed LTZ's point about Timothy McVeigh. Intelligence, hand-in-glove with some decent foreign policy, is the only way to stop such people and organizations.

Emotional Toothpaste · Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:07 pm

I didn't miss LTZ's point about McVeigh, just didn't address it. I'd bet on a stack of Aryan Bibles

that ever since OK City -- we got the nutcase McVeigh-types profiled to a T already and are secretly watching them very closely.

We should do no less with islamo-facists, regardless of the color of their skin. But we shouldn't be ashamed of the basic-assed statistics or the logical direction they point us in to thwart future attacks. PC be damned.

Thats all. I'm done with it. Crucify me.

Tim(e) · Post by **Tim(e)** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:09 pm

Mechanical Grace wrote:
Tim(e) wrote:Anyone who believes they had it worse under Saddam are also kidding themselves.

That seems a bit presumptuous, frankly. Did you live in Iraq? Many Iraqis might agree with you but I'd prefer to hear it from them, not from someone who's no closer to the situation than I am here.

As for perspective, I don't think anyone in this thread has written anything that would discourage mourning for the hundreds of thousands of other people on this planet who may be oppressed or dead due to any one of a number of global conflicts, including, yes, lots with U.S. involvement. Lots of us think of those deaths every single day, to say nothing of the anger we feel at the offensive charade Bush has made of his 'response' to 9/11.

I wonder if you would have written something comparable if we were marking the 5th anniversary of the bombing of the Sydney Opera House (which wouldn't even compare anyway) where people you'd known personally were killed or had lost loved ones.

Actually, a friend of mine was killed in the first Bali bombing, so yes, I do have a very close connection with such events. It is pretty obvious from my opening sentence that I agree that we should remember those who died in NYC, but I wanted to make the point that there are many more mourning the deaths of loved ones in Iraq and Afghanistan as a direct result of that event. That was also why I used the word perspective... it was NOT meant to belittle the events of 9/11.

My comments re Iraq are not presumptuous at all. I believe you will find that there is far greater carnage occurring there on a daily basis since the "war on terrorism" and the removal of Saddam than there was before. One does not have to have experienced it first hand to be aware of that.

Lastly, I am not sure why you felt it necessary to add the snide/unnecessary reference to a similar attack on the Opera House and the fact that it wouldn't compare. What was the point of that?

Mechanical Grace · Post by **Mechanical Grace** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:02 pm

I only said it wouldn't compare because of the size and density of people-to-square footage ratio; the hole ripped in lower Manhattan is more or less unique.

I didn't mean to be snide in the least. I'm only saying that had it happened where you lived, and yesterday was your day of mourning, you might be somewhat pissed off at people needing even for that one day to detract from its significance with a "yes, but...". You're a person of conscience; so am I. Frankly I think about the deaths and events in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and other parts of the world with more horror and more dread, and certainly more frequency, than I do about those who were lost at the WTC, because I read the paper every day and find much of what is going on to be obscene. That deaths elsewhere are connected (by fiat) to the deaths here only makes 9/11 worse, a more important date to mark. And I reserve the right to mourn those people, the wound to my country, and the knife in the heart of a city I love very dearly. Without the belittling (even if you say they weren't) qualifications and the implication that people who are sad about what happened in New York don't have perspective.

Yes, I guess I am touchy, so sue me. I'm still feeling devastated by what happened.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 9:39 pm

Tim(e) wrote:
I believe you will find that there is far greater carnage occurring there on a daily basis since the "war on terrorism" and the removal of Saddam than there was before.

Again, no fan of the war in Iraq, but let's not kid ourselves about carnage under Saddam. He was responsible for the murders of hundreds of thousands of his own people. And as I said before, both sets of circumstances should be mourned without regard to which managed to kill more poor people.

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:14 pm

Going with a comment in an earlier post about stopping the people we have control over. No argument there. That is the essence of the electoral process and key to liberty. However, it seems there is a responsibility to finish the thought...if you decommission the guy that you feel is responsible for perpetuating the unbridled murderous rampage of those who would like to see us all dead, then who do you see in his place? Hillary? Can she talk these killers down? Who can change the sick call of Ahmadinejad to wipe Isreal off the map and destroy western civilization? Newt? Rudy? John? Howard? Al?

Or nobody.

Answer: Nobody in particular. No political party representative. Only the leader with the courage to cut the shit and stop the pussyfootin' that suggests we can hold hands with these people and they will see the light...reason will prevail. Ain't gonna happen, because our reason (and the "reason" of our current leadership) is anathema to their mission to satisfy Allah and ascend into the reward, only ensured with the murder of those who do not see their God as the one true God.

When George leaves, I hope and pray for you, I, and our children that the next leader is tougher on this issue than the past. If not, nuclear holocaust and day-to-day terror, not long ago considered almost impossible in Haifa, for example, is now a common occurance.

Every innocent person who dies in terror, or in conflict, or in war is to be mourned for eternity, and their families held, served, and protected to the extreme.

Operative word here is innocent. INNOCENT. Not civilians who have 40 pounds of explosive strapped to thier abdomen and who blow themselves and 40 others to smithereens. An innocent in Iraq? Hard to differentiate. Are there innocents in Iraq? Of course! But impossible to differentiate. How about the innocent or quilty status of those killed on 9/11? Were the Muslims killed less innocent than the Roman Catjholics? The Jews/ No. They were ALL innocent as hell. Period. Would any of the victims of 9/11, if given the chance, have fought tooth and nail to live and protect their fellow Twin Towers worker, regardless of race, creed, or color? I wish they had a chance to. Because the outcome would have been different. God Bless 'em, they never had a chance. Whata horrible way to die. God Bless them, So lack. The same God that made you, and that will some day drop to your knee's and beg the forgiveness of, when your time is at hand.

They never had a chance to vote in or out the leader. The countryfolk that harbor and aid and abbet the fundamentalist terrorists are either doing so out of abject fear or out of will. I don't know, but I think it is mostly fear. What a life. They capitulate or decapitate. Tough call.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Wed Sep 13, 2006 11:07 am

I'm not sure, but perhaps the first part of your post was directed at my earlier post? Specifically the comment that we should "stop the one we have control over as soon as possible"? I wasn't talking about stopping Bush, I was talking about stopping the War in Iraq. I wasn't saying we should decommission Bush (he's got a time limit anyway, though two years and a few months is still a long time). I was saying we should get out of Iraq as soon as possible. Much sooner than Bush and Cheney would do it. Obviously at this point, that job is going to fall to the next administration. Bush said clearly that we'll be in Iraq as long as he's president. As much of a mistake as I think that is, I accept it. I hope whoever takes over in 2009 has enough sense to start bringing the troops home. Or send them to Afghanistan to actually find the murderous bastards who ordered 9/11 instead of the (here it comes) quagmire we've gotten bogged down in.

As to the issue of civilians, I'd have to argue that anyone with a bomb strapped to them is not a civilian whether in uniform or not. By civilian, I meant to imply innocent bystander. And far too many of the people dying in Iraq are exactly that. It may well be difficult to distinguish between the enemy and an innocent civilian. It was in Vietnam. But if you insist on being at war, you have to make an effort to tell the damn difference. And if it's too hard, then you don't keep pulling the trigger just because you're already locked and loaded.

It was back in nineteen forty-two,
I was a member of a good platoon.
We were on maneuvers in-a Loozianna,
One night by the light of the moon.
The captain told us to ford a river,
That's how it all begun.
We were -- knee deep in the Big Muddy,
But the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, are you sure,
This is the best way back to the base?"
"Sergeant, go on! I forded this river
'Bout a mile above this place.
It'll be a little soggy but just keep slogging.
We'll soon be on dry ground."
We were -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

The Sergeant said, "Sir, with all this equipment
No man will be able to swim."
"Sergeant, don't be a Nervous Nellie,"
The Captain said to him.
"All we need is a little determination;
Men, follow me, I'll lead on."
We were -- neck deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool said to push on.

All at once, the moon clouded over,
We heard a gurgling cry.
A few seconds later, the captain's helmet
Was all that floated by.
The Sergeant said, "Turn around men!
I'm in charge from now on."
And we just made it out of the Big Muddy
With the captain dead and gone.

We stripped and dived and found his body
Stuck in the old quicksand.
I guess he didn't know that the water was deeper
Than the place he'd once before been.
Another stream had joined the Big Muddy
'Bout a half mile from where we'd gone.
We were lucky to escape from the Big Muddy
When the big fool said to push on.

Well, I'm not going to point any moral;
I'll leave that for yourself
Maybe you're still walking, you're still talking
You'd like to keep your health.
But every time I read the papers
That old feeling comes on;
We're -- waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.

Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep in the Big Muddy
And the big fool says to push on.
Waist deep! Neck deep! Soon even a
Tall man'll be over his head, we're
Waist deep in the Big Muddy!
And the big fool says to push on!

Words and music by Pete Seeger (1967)
TRO (c) 1967 Melody Trails, Inc. New York, NY