EC and BC

scielle · Post by **scielle** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 3:05 pm

Late on Thursday, Clinton held court with singer-songwriter Elvis Costello and his wife, jazz sensation Diana Krall, at a chic party featuring sushi and champagne.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N16618100.htm

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 5:27 pm

Uh-ohh.

Now I am faced with a real dilemma.

johnfoyle · Post by **johnfoyle** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:34 pm

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3449870/

I see we may be getting a Clapton autobiography, here. That’s something I’d really love to read, though I’m betting he can’t remember much and what he does remember probably didn’t happen. Coincidentally, the most fruitful conversation I had at the reception for the Clinton Global Initiative was with Elvis Costello about the book he is writing for Simon and Schuster. It’s not, he says, an autobiography, and nothing, he says, like Dylan’s Chronicles--about which we both expressed our amazement—but rather a series of essays about key songs he’s written and the thoughts they inspire. It sounds a little like Springsteen’s Storyteller’s performance, which is now out in an expanded version on DVD, and which everybody ought to watch, because, like Chronicles, it offers an incredible window into the creative process. Anyway, I never talked to Elvis before but he was pretty nice. Diana Krall was also nice, but insists she had no books in her.

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:39 pm

Mr. Average wrote:Uh-ohh.

Now I am faced with a real dilemma.

Why? Surely you didn't expect him to show up at a George W. Bush rally?

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:01 pm

Not unless he is singing Bedlam and flippin' the bird to Lorne Michaels.

But c'mon...Bill Clinton? No wonder Hollywood loved the guy. He is such a natural. When he showed in Houston at the Astrodome, and the camera's were followiing him from story to story, he always, and I mean ALWAYS knows exactly where the camera is, and how he needs to be positioned for the best shot. That's all cool, I guess, but the whole Ron Brown faux tears thing is really enough to make me sick.

However, just for clarification, I was joking in the earlier post. I love the music and poetry of Elvis Costello. If I factored in the politics of the music and film stars that I love, there wouldn't be a lot on my entertainment and social calender.

so lacklustre · Post by **so lacklustre** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 3:45 am

Mr. Average wrote:Not unless he is singing Bedlam and flippin' the bird to Lorne Michaels.

But c'mon...Bill Clinton? No wonder Hollywood loved the guy. He is such a natural. When he showed in Houston at the Astrodome, and the camera's were followiing him from story to story, he always, and I mean ALWAYS knows exactly where the camera is, and how he needs to be positioned for the best shot. That's all cool, I guess, but the whole Ron Brown faux tears thing is really enough to make me sick.

However, just for clarification, I was joking in the earlier post. I love the music and poetry of Elvis Costello. If I factored in the politics of the music and film stars that I love, there wouldn't be a lot on my entertainment and social calender.

An doesn't that kind of tell you something?

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:58 am

It tells me that my favorite artists are brilliant artists. It says absolutely nothing about their ability to do or say anything of any consequence in area's outside of their area of expertise. Pete Rose was a brilliant Baseball Player. But an idiot father. Ty Cobb was a brilliant ball player, but a racist. Michael Jordan, Miles Davis, Quentin Tarantino. Sort of like the running jokes (with some good justification) about PhD's and MBA's...that as they zero in on a particular area of expertise their grip on the breadth of lifes rich experiences is often diminished. Gosh, they are brilliant physicists, biologists, and/or marketeers. But some of them cannot tie their own shoes.

Once outside of a particular area of expertise, what in he world gives celebrity a better grasp on the essentials of life and living than, say, the guy that cuts the grass at the local industrial complex. NOTHING.

Tim Robbins is a brilliant actor. how does that occupational experience imbue him with greater qualifications to 'understand' life and politics then, say, me? It doesn't. But he sure can act. And I can do many things that he would never attempt, or if he did, I would outperform him. By that logic, then I suppose that confers on me a wealth of knowledge and experience that I can and should share as an editorialist.

The epitome of superficiality, in my opinion, is to feel that your political or religious position is substantiated or somehow validated when a good singer, or a great performer happens to hold the same position. God man, think for yourself.

If anything, having a political/religious belief system that is opposite that of a Hollywood, Sports, or a music industry legend is, in and of itself, a form of validation for me.

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:03 am

Mr. Average wrote:It tells me that my favorite artists are brilliant artists. It says absolutely nothing about their ability to do or say anything of any consequence in area's outside of their area of expertise. Pete Rose was a brilliant Baseball Player. But an idiot father. Ty Cobb was a brilliant ball player, but a racist.

The difference is that those were athletes, not artists.

Like it or not, there's a lot of political content in EC's music. The idea that you can just suck it all out or write it off as the misguided opinions of an ill-informed artist is ludicrous. Might as well pitch Armed Forces in the garbage.

None of the fine people I know from this board are blindly taking political cues from EC - they're quite capable of making their own decisions. Many of us also happen to gravitate to EC precisely becuase he has a way of voicing feelings and thoughts that many of us share, not only with regard to politics, but also relationships and other matters.

Boy With A Problem · Post by **Boy With A Problem** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:06 am

I find myself agreeing with Mr. Average.

Ronald Reagan was a perfectly adequate actor - but what the fuck was he thinking getting involved in politics?

Same thing with Schwarzenager (spelling?) - Steve Largent, Jim Bunning, JC Watts, Sonny Bono, Clint Eastwood, etc etc.

I agree Mr. Average. Who the fuck do these people think they are?

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:18 am

I am fully aware that there is a lot of politics in EC's music. I opened my previous thread with a mention to a song that is hard politics. But explain to me, please, how in the world Elvis Costello is more qualified to be a learned shill for the left than I am to strongly advocate the alternative end of the political spectrum? Does working nightclubs and concert halls confer that authority? Are these better places to learn about politics then, say, reading political commentary daily and jousting about in the office on the issue du jour? Sheesh.

I'll prove my point. I write poetry. I will now write a politcal poem.
Biden
Dashed to the craggy shelfs of chamber ettiquette
Little words from a little man
Biden.

Okay, I am an artist, You may not like my art. In fact, the sample presented is horrendous. But Does that confer any authority to speak definitively about politics? Or...do you need to be a SUCCESSFUL artist. Rich. Famous.

To be fair, I think your point is that people validate the POLITICS of Elvis Costello and all of his projects, of Tim Robbins and all of his films and plays, when they buy their artistic product. I sincerely doubt that EC's politics have been a primary, or even a secondary driver in his artistic success. I think people like his music. The political soapboxes are just part of celebrity. They have absolutely nothing to do with reality.

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:48 am

Mr. Average wrote:I am fully aware that there is a lot of politics in EC's music. I opened my previous thread with a mention to a song that is hard politics. But explain to me, please, how in the world Elvis Costello is more qualified to be a learned shill for the left than I am to strongly advocate the alternative end of the political spectrum? Does working nightclubs and concert halls confer that authority? Are these better places to learn about politics then, say, reading political commentary daily and jousting about in the office on the issue du jour? Sheesh.

I'll prove my point. I write poetry. I will now write a politcal poem.
Biden
Dashed to the craggy shelfs of chamber ettiquette
Little words from a little man
Biden.

Okay, I am an artist, You may not like my art. In fact, the sample presented is horrendous. But Does that confer any authority to speak definitively about politics? Or...do you need to be a SUCCESSFUL artist. Rich. Famous.

To be fair, I think your point is that people validate the POLITICS of Elvis Costello and all of his projects, of Tim Robbins and all of his films and plays, when they buy their artistic product. I sincerely doubt that EC's politics have been a primary, or even a secondary driver in his artistic success. I think people like his music. The political soapboxes are just part of celebrity. They have absolutely nothing to do with reality.

Nobody is saying (or least I am not) that EC is somehow more qualified than anyone else to voice his political opinions, but he does have the perfect right to, and we as listeners have the right to agree or disagree with him. I am not validating anything by buying his records, any more than I am validating an author's opinions when I buy one of his/her books. I evaluate it for what it is - I agree or disagree with it (or am indifferent), and life goes on.

What's that expression? Opinions are like assholes - everyone's got one? I happen to think that EC has it spot on most of the time when it comes to politics. You obviously do not.

selfmademug · Post by **selfmademug** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:59 am

One of the reasons I love Elvis so much is for his lyrical (verbal) insight into the human condition, personal and global both. He's a fantastic writer, and no more excuses need be made for valuing his well-expressed and subtle opinions than for those of other good writers/thinkers. He may not be George Orwell but he's well worth listening to in every sense. Bill Clinton is a very, very smart guy; perrsonally I'd love to have been privvy to that conversation.

Extreme Honey · Post by **Extreme Honey** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:31 pm

I never knew Elvis digs Clinton. And nor did I ever want to know such a fact. Not that I dislike Clinton, but you shouldn't mix great music with american politics.

During Clinton's reign, was there the same quantity of anti-americaness as there is today?

miss buenos aires · Post by **miss buenos aires** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 12:48 pm

Mr. Average wrote:But c'mon...Bill Clinton? No wonder Hollywood loved the guy. He is such a natural. When he showed in Houston at the Astrodome, and the camera's were followiing him from story to story, he always, and I mean ALWAYS knows exactly where the camera is, and how he needs to be positioned for the best shot. That's all cool, I guess, but the whole Ron Brown faux tears thing is really enough to make me sick.

I know I'm coming late to the discussion, but I just wanted to point out that W is not exactly an artless man before the camera. He and his handlers, Katrina aside, are nearly otherworldly when it comes to media manipulation. The backdrop "Mission Accomplished" (and other) banners, the artful positioning of W in front of Mount Rushmore for a photo op:

http://www.uiowa.edu/policult/bush/rushmore.html

I mean, I don't blame the guy for being media savvy, but I also don't think the same skills automatically discredit Clinton.

selfmademug · Post by **selfmademug** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:04 pm

THANK you. Frankly that 24/7 smirk on W's face needs constant diversion, lest we see that he's gonna crack up at his own absurdity the moment he's off camera. He makes me sick. All politicians are photo whores, and so is Elvis, IMO. I couldn't care less about that as long as there is something genuine behind it. I severely doubt that with Bush fils.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:26 pm

As usual, I find myself loathing this quality in both parties pretty much allt he time. But it's true that you just can't get elected into any major office without knowing your way around a camera. That's been true since Kennedy v. Nixon. It'ss be true as long as we watch TV. Clinton is to be no more despised for his use of the media than any other politician. But neither is Bush to be given a pass for his media manipulation. It's a dispicable practice that everyone practices.

verena · Post by **verena** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:13 pm

Just to answer E.H. : No, the worldwide outburst of anti-americanism clearly dates back to the Irak war. And it is very much an anti-G.W.B., not an anti-U.S. movement.
Clinton was well respected on the international stage, btw (even if he didn't handle internal affairs in the best manner...)

invisible Pole · Post by **invisible Pole** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 7:46 pm

Yep, he handled intern affairs much better.

verena · Post by **verena** » Sat Sep 17, 2005 8:10 pm

Precisely.

Will kane · Post by **Will kane** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:20 am

Yeah, Clinton was fairly well respected in the U.K., mostly as a consequence of his involvement with the Northern Ireland peace process.

It helped that he actually appeared to have read a book once too.

Elvis writes about the things he feels strongly about. Politics happens to be one of those things.

Bob Dylan wasn't any more qualified in the 60s, but it took him to articulate the feelings of a particular generation.

Does Elvis know any more about love than the rest of us?

alexv · Post by **alexv** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:14 am

Will, I don't know about that Dylan comparison. Dylan was THE voice of a generation (at least of its more politically active end of it); EC has always been a cult act whose music was more insular. When his songs have gone political in some cases, he has tended to focus on specific issues relating to English politics.

I kinda disagree with the view that EC's politics color his music: I think it's rare that it comes across overtly. It's clear he is a left-leaning liberal in the modern sense of the word, but does anyone see any political content in these records? North, Painted from Memory, Brutal Youth, MLAR, This Year's Model, Get Happy, Almost Blue, Blood and Chocolate, All this Useless Beauty, Imperial Bedroom, WIWC. Even records where political content is found (Spike, Punch, Armed Forces, MIAIT) the songs are mainly about local British issues, or general statements about peace, love, the environment and all that.

Don't we all like the guy mainly because he makes great, smart pop music for smart listeners across the political spectrum. which is why his consorting with BC or Attila the Hun shouldn't really make a difference?

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 10:33 am

alexv wrote:North, Painted from Memory, Brutal Youth, MLAR, This Year's Model, Get Happy, Almost Blue, Blood and Chocolate, All this Useless Beauty, Imperial Bedroom, WIWC.

MLAR is a fairly political album (I'm thinking of songs like "The Other Side Of Summer", "Hurry Down Doomsday"). It is fairly rare that you get overtly political songs like "Shipbuilding" or "Tramp The Dirt Down". But I agree that politics don't really have a whole lot to do with my appreciation of his music. The first thing that appealed to me as a teenager was the urgency and intensity of This Year's Model. That he is capable of expressing so many other moods and ideas so brilliantly puts him in another class from most of the other songwriters out there.

Will kane · Post by **Will kane** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 11:23 am

Will, I don't know about that Dylan comparison. Dylan was THE voice of a generation (at least of its more politically active end of it); EC has always been a cult act whose music was more insular.

Yeah, I wasn't comparing Costello to Dylan in terms of impact.

It's more that people listen to them both, not because they tell them what to think, more that they articulate what they already feel.

What I was I was trying to (unsuccessfully) articulate was:
Q.what qualified Dylan to spout political rhetoric?
A:Nothing, it's just that many young people agreed with what he said at a time when they had no voice through the usual channels.

And I think a lot of left-leaning artists believe that the U.S. news media are currently not doing their job in representing all political voices but, at best, merely reinforcing the status quo. And since they have a public platform they believe they have a duty to put their viewpoint across.

And I'm sure Charlton Heston etc. felt the same when Clinton was in power.

North, Painted from Memory, Brutal Youth, MLAR, This Year's Model, Get Happy, Almost Blue, Blood and Chocolate, All this Useless Beauty, Imperial Bedroom, WIWC.

BY has 20% Amnesia (Refers to Tory Tax bribe); B&C has Tokyo Storm Warning (refers to Thatcher and the Falklands conflict), TYM has Night Rally (referes to the British National Party); GBCW has Peace in our time (Reagan, Sen. John Glen etc).

Don't we all like the guy mainly because he makes great, smart pop music for smart listeners across the political spectrum. which is why his consorting with BC or Attila the Hun shouldn't really make a difference?

Yes, of course.
Not sure I'd be listening to him if his songs were overtly right-wing though.
I'm sure there's loads of artists I admire whom I would disagree with politically, Gene Kelly supported the IRA (if only sentimentally), Degas was an anti-semite, but since none this intrudes on their work it doesn't matter.

noiseradio · Post by **noiseradio** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:14 pm

I especially liked the bit of foreign policy in the Clinton administration when he blew up a pharmaceutical plant in Sudan a few weeks afetr the lewinsky scandal broke. That was awesome.

selfmademug · Post by **selfmademug** » Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:32 pm

No shit. There were plenty of slimeball moments in his years, no question about it.