And there you have it. This raises a lot more questions: how will he be tried, etc. And on the other hand, four more glorious years of Bush.
DrJ
Saddam's Capture
Saddam's Capture
And there you have it. This raises a lot more questions: how will he be tried, etc. And on the other hand, four more glorious years of Bush.
DrJ
Tlentifini Maarhaysu
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selfmademug
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A rope leash
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Sa-Damn
Let's see, we invaded a soveriegn nation by using the greatest military the world had ever seen, and chased the country's leader down like a dog, and now, we're going to execute him for all the world to see how we handle "evil" dictators. Saddam is a bad guy, but we are little more than imperialist thugs ourselves.
Your country is next.
Your country is next.
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A rope leash
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Numbered days
I think it could get very ugly. The Iraquis are going to want a public execution.
If anyone deserves a public execution, it's Saddam. I understand that good can come from his removal, but isn't this whole affair just an ugly and dangerously unprecedented debacle? Since when does the USA use it's overt military might to hunt down and kill (trial or not, he's going to die) the leader of another country? Why didn't we do it to Castro?
We can exect this sort of thing from the USA for the rest of the new century. I was really hopping for much better. I guess those damn hippies must have made me believe that peace and kindness were the true human nature, but the fact is, were bloodthirsty mammals, much like the dog.
I'm sorry that I don't like wars or executions. I'm sure there was a way of removing Saddam without blasting away and killing thousands. It would have taken time, which we obviously didn't feel we had. We were, and still are, running out of oil. MUST HAVE OIL.
I am also certain that there is a dungeon that will hold Saddam, but we won't do that, because there's a war on, and barbarism shall reign.
It's just ugly, that's all.
If anyone deserves a public execution, it's Saddam. I understand that good can come from his removal, but isn't this whole affair just an ugly and dangerously unprecedented debacle? Since when does the USA use it's overt military might to hunt down and kill (trial or not, he's going to die) the leader of another country? Why didn't we do it to Castro?
We can exect this sort of thing from the USA for the rest of the new century. I was really hopping for much better. I guess those damn hippies must have made me believe that peace and kindness were the true human nature, but the fact is, were bloodthirsty mammals, much like the dog.
I'm sorry that I don't like wars or executions. I'm sure there was a way of removing Saddam without blasting away and killing thousands. It would have taken time, which we obviously didn't feel we had. We were, and still are, running out of oil. MUST HAVE OIL.
I am also certain that there is a dungeon that will hold Saddam, but we won't do that, because there's a war on, and barbarism shall reign.
It's just ugly, that's all.
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SoLikeCandy
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A rope leash
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Let's expose our genitals
Shit. Why don't we just roll over and play dead, now?
Capturing Saddam makes up for everything. By gosh, Ol' George is a noble man, spreadin' peace love and democracy throughout the world! Let's spread the word of our enlightenment by getting on the GWB bandwagon for '04. It's absolutley imperative that the world be made safe for American consumerism. We gotta get on the "right" side in this war!
Besides that, he'll kick our asses if we don't!
Capturing Saddam makes up for everything. By gosh, Ol' George is a noble man, spreadin' peace love and democracy throughout the world! Let's spread the word of our enlightenment by getting on the GWB bandwagon for '04. It's absolutley imperative that the world be made safe for American consumerism. We gotta get on the "right" side in this war!
Besides that, he'll kick our asses if we don't!
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SoLikeCandy
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so lacklustre
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A rope leash
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Funny!
No doubt he'll be dressed as Santa in all of next week's political cartoons!
Hey, So Lack, is that Fatty Arbuckle on your avatar?
Hey, So Lack, is that Fatty Arbuckle on your avatar?
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so lacklustre
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laughingcrow
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There's no way they will hand Hussain back to the Iraqis to let them execute him..they'll have to put him on an international trial, and there's no way that they'll let you bring him to justice according to your country's law either, let alone execute him in some sordid jailhouse in texas...there were other countries involved too, they have a say as well.
What I find striking about all of this, is the amount of blatant hypocrisy in the 'left wing' as the 'right' these days....for example, before a plane crashed into the trade centre, most of the left wing was crying out for hussain to be removed...once the coalition does something, it becries them as warmongers.
Im not for any innocent human being killed, but surely the proverbial 'lesser of two evils' counts in this case.
I'm sure that Bush will use this as one platform for reelection...but at the end of the day, a lot of americans are very overpatriotic, so it will probably work...but thats democracy for you. Over half of your country (and this is nearly the case here) doesn't even bother to vote...those people deserve Bush...and that's not me denigrating him because I think he's a 'war monger' or an 'oil thief', which I don't think he is...it's because he's as illiterate and blind to the reality of his nation as the people who can't use ballot boxes.
Im glad they have caught Hussain, I doubt it will stop any fundementalist attacks against 'the west' in the long run, but it will quash the ba'athists and might just bring Iraq back to something resembling a proper Islamic state...oh yeah, and it might bring a complete murderous evil asshole to some form of justice.
What I find striking about all of this, is the amount of blatant hypocrisy in the 'left wing' as the 'right' these days....for example, before a plane crashed into the trade centre, most of the left wing was crying out for hussain to be removed...once the coalition does something, it becries them as warmongers.
Im not for any innocent human being killed, but surely the proverbial 'lesser of two evils' counts in this case.
I'm sure that Bush will use this as one platform for reelection...but at the end of the day, a lot of americans are very overpatriotic, so it will probably work...but thats democracy for you. Over half of your country (and this is nearly the case here) doesn't even bother to vote...those people deserve Bush...and that's not me denigrating him because I think he's a 'war monger' or an 'oil thief', which I don't think he is...it's because he's as illiterate and blind to the reality of his nation as the people who can't use ballot boxes.
Im glad they have caught Hussain, I doubt it will stop any fundementalist attacks against 'the west' in the long run, but it will quash the ba'athists and might just bring Iraq back to something resembling a proper Islamic state...oh yeah, and it might bring a complete murderous evil asshole to some form of justice.
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noiseradio
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"Pat votes the Scots way
Just like her mother.
But South always takes all
Just like her brother.
The next time she might vote
But so might the others.
But time's running out, pal.
Cause they're giving up the numbers."
--Proclaimers "What Do You Do?"
My prediction is that Hussein will be tried in public, in Iraq, by a coalition military tribunal, and then executed. That coalition military tribunal will be composed overwhelmingly of US embers, with the next largest percentage of membership being from the UK. There will likely be several token members of the interim Iraq government involved as well. Evidence will be presented of Saddam's ordering of the murders of over 400,000 people, and he will be executed--I'm guessing--by firing squad. He'd do better to be executed in Texas, where he'd get the gas chamber.
The above is a prediction, not a wish. But I will shed no tears over Saddam, whatever happens to him. He will get more due process, more of a fair trial than he ever gave those he murdered.
Just like her mother.
But South always takes all
Just like her brother.
The next time she might vote
But so might the others.
But time's running out, pal.
Cause they're giving up the numbers."
--Proclaimers "What Do You Do?"
My prediction is that Hussein will be tried in public, in Iraq, by a coalition military tribunal, and then executed. That coalition military tribunal will be composed overwhelmingly of US embers, with the next largest percentage of membership being from the UK. There will likely be several token members of the interim Iraq government involved as well. Evidence will be presented of Saddam's ordering of the murders of over 400,000 people, and he will be executed--I'm guessing--by firing squad. He'd do better to be executed in Texas, where he'd get the gas chamber.
The above is a prediction, not a wish. But I will shed no tears over Saddam, whatever happens to him. He will get more due process, more of a fair trial than he ever gave those he murdered.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
--William Shakespeare
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A rope leash
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Sad Saddam
His only hope of not being executed is trail by an international court. If he gets a trial like that, I'll bet he spends loads of time just talking, Milosovich-style.
Please allow me to take issue with LCrow, on the contention that the left was crying out for Saddam's removal. I don't recall any of that, at least not from the part of lefty-land that I come from. We thought containment was working, and many of us thought that the sanctions were to harsh and too detrimental to the average Iraqis. (By the way, the estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths directly attributed to the sanctions might astound you).
So, I know I was not one of those that complained about the US not "going all the way" to Baghdad during the Gulf war. That was the right wing, I'm pretty sure.
I also disagree about the oil thing. Many of GWB's family, friends, and associates are getting stinking rich from this war, all at US taxpayer's expense. Oil is the crucial product of the region, and the major spoil of this war. The US will now plant three or four permenant military bases in Iraq to insure delivery of the oil to our market.
I'm not saying that oil is the only reason the US is engaged in this endeavour. But, we can't say that Saddam had anything to do with 911, which was given as cause, and we can't say as yet that he held any real threat to us with major weapons, which was also given as cause for attack. If it isn't for oil, then GWB really is on a crusade to defeat the forces of evil, and we can expect that the US will remain in a continuous state of conflict somewhere on the globe for the next half-century.
Looking at it that way, we should almost hope it's all about oil, and that once Uncle Sam gets his teat, then he'll chill for a spell.
Please read:
http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_dec14.html
Please allow me to take issue with LCrow, on the contention that the left was crying out for Saddam's removal. I don't recall any of that, at least not from the part of lefty-land that I come from. We thought containment was working, and many of us thought that the sanctions were to harsh and too detrimental to the average Iraqis. (By the way, the estimates of Iraqi civilian deaths directly attributed to the sanctions might astound you).
So, I know I was not one of those that complained about the US not "going all the way" to Baghdad during the Gulf war. That was the right wing, I'm pretty sure.
I also disagree about the oil thing. Many of GWB's family, friends, and associates are getting stinking rich from this war, all at US taxpayer's expense. Oil is the crucial product of the region, and the major spoil of this war. The US will now plant three or four permenant military bases in Iraq to insure delivery of the oil to our market.
I'm not saying that oil is the only reason the US is engaged in this endeavour. But, we can't say that Saddam had anything to do with 911, which was given as cause, and we can't say as yet that he held any real threat to us with major weapons, which was also given as cause for attack. If it isn't for oil, then GWB really is on a crusade to defeat the forces of evil, and we can expect that the US will remain in a continuous state of conflict somewhere on the globe for the next half-century.
Looking at it that way, we should almost hope it's all about oil, and that once Uncle Sam gets his teat, then he'll chill for a spell.
Please read:
http://www.canoe.ca/Columnists/margolis_dec14.html
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double dutchess
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Personally, I think he'll be executed in front of a worldwide audience. FOX news will probably broadcast it.
I realize this makes me sound a little conspiracy theory oriented, but I think the US knew where he was for a while, and they waited for just the right time to drag him out and announce a capture. I've notied that most things in this administration are carefully planned out. They probably noticed that people were getting tired of the mounting casualties and may have been questioning the point of it all. Perhaps it could also be tied to the rising popularity of Howard Dean. The GOP may feel threatened by him.
Or maybe it's all just a coincidnece. Who knows? All I know is that I'll be checking The Guardian online for more accurate coverage.
I shudder at the thought of four more years of him. But, in the likely event that it happens...I have to ask: Do any of you lads in more progressive countries want an American wife?
I realize this makes me sound a little conspiracy theory oriented, but I think the US knew where he was for a while, and they waited for just the right time to drag him out and announce a capture. I've notied that most things in this administration are carefully planned out. They probably noticed that people were getting tired of the mounting casualties and may have been questioning the point of it all. Perhaps it could also be tied to the rising popularity of Howard Dean. The GOP may feel threatened by him.
Or maybe it's all just a coincidnece. Who knows? All I know is that I'll be checking The Guardian online for more accurate coverage.
I shudder at the thought of four more years of him. But, in the likely event that it happens...I have to ask: Do any of you lads in more progressive countries want an American wife?
I wasn't born the sharpest thorn
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SoLikeCandy
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laughingcrow
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The 'left' I was referring to was the journal of Amnesty international, and magazines like the morning star, which were stating that Hussain was allowed to govern without being stopped because of the oil connection, i.e Iraq is joint-highest supplier of oil to the US. Then once the 'war' (if you can call it that) started the same people were saying that we were only taking hussain out of power so the US could preserve their oil.
Yeah, I agree that oil is a factor in the decision, but the major factor was removal of a threat to the US and Europe by destroying the people finacing the 'terror' groups. I realise that Bush's companies and his 'big money superstar patriots' (or whatever stupid nomenclature he gave his cronies that financially backed him during the war) will also benefit from the 'rebuilding' of Iraq. You also have to realise that other countries like the UK and Spain, will also benefit, and our financial losses will have been proportionately more than that of the US's...so rather that weakening US-EU relations by halting France/Deutschland from the 'rebuilding' (after they refused to even consider helping the coalition) it is also helping our economies. It's easy to be really cynical about it seeing as Bush's friends stand to make money - but it's a job that needs doing I'm afraid.
I don't agree that Iraq is completely irresponsible for September the 11th either...while they maybe weren't directly involved, hussain was a major player in the funding to many Islamic 'terror' groups, as are many of the backers to the Saudi Arabian government...now if you want a real 'oil excuse' for not doing anything, there's a big one! The largest share (26%) of the proven resources and the real big boy in OPEC...hmm, why doesn't anyone wan't to piss them off? Fact is they don't have a terrible human rights record and a dictatorship, so we don't have an excuse. (yet?)
Yeah, I agree that oil is a factor in the decision, but the major factor was removal of a threat to the US and Europe by destroying the people finacing the 'terror' groups. I realise that Bush's companies and his 'big money superstar patriots' (or whatever stupid nomenclature he gave his cronies that financially backed him during the war) will also benefit from the 'rebuilding' of Iraq. You also have to realise that other countries like the UK and Spain, will also benefit, and our financial losses will have been proportionately more than that of the US's...so rather that weakening US-EU relations by halting France/Deutschland from the 'rebuilding' (after they refused to even consider helping the coalition) it is also helping our economies. It's easy to be really cynical about it seeing as Bush's friends stand to make money - but it's a job that needs doing I'm afraid.
I don't agree that Iraq is completely irresponsible for September the 11th either...while they maybe weren't directly involved, hussain was a major player in the funding to many Islamic 'terror' groups, as are many of the backers to the Saudi Arabian government...now if you want a real 'oil excuse' for not doing anything, there's a big one! The largest share (26%) of the proven resources and the real big boy in OPEC...hmm, why doesn't anyone wan't to piss them off? Fact is they don't have a terrible human rights record and a dictatorship, so we don't have an excuse. (yet?)
Well I'm a cynic, even towards people I support.
I have no philosophical problem with entering a country and removing a murderous, torturous dictator. (I also know the many reasons why we can't go around doing that; just saying I wouldn't mind it if we did.) But why this SOB, and why now?
I think Bush sees himself as a Liberator, that he really believes in Democracy and wants to be the person who brings it to the Middle East. I also think that invading Iraq was a strategy with many advantageous points for the US, only a few of which had anything to do with WMD.
I wouldn't be surprised if a few people in our military had known of Hussein's location for some time, and captured him when the time was right: perfect for Bush's ratings and the economy. I also can believe that they really, truly just now found him.
All I really believe is that we'll never know which one is true.
And I will not be surprised if they find bin Laden shortly before the presidential elections.
As for France, etc., crying foul over the rebuilding contracts: what did they expect? We can't all be as charitable as Ned Flanders.
The only thing that's funny in all this are the many spellings for Saddam's name that appear in this thread.
I have no philosophical problem with entering a country and removing a murderous, torturous dictator. (I also know the many reasons why we can't go around doing that; just saying I wouldn't mind it if we did.) But why this SOB, and why now?
I think Bush sees himself as a Liberator, that he really believes in Democracy and wants to be the person who brings it to the Middle East. I also think that invading Iraq was a strategy with many advantageous points for the US, only a few of which had anything to do with WMD.
I wouldn't be surprised if a few people in our military had known of Hussein's location for some time, and captured him when the time was right: perfect for Bush's ratings and the economy. I also can believe that they really, truly just now found him.
All I really believe is that we'll never know which one is true.
And I will not be surprised if they find bin Laden shortly before the presidential elections.
As for France, etc., crying foul over the rebuilding contracts: what did they expect? We can't all be as charitable as Ned Flanders.
The only thing that's funny in all this are the many spellings for Saddam's name that appear in this thread.
Don't bury me 'cause I'm not dead yet.
A few random thoughts -- to me it's a sad commentary that Amnesty International can be considered "left". Amnesty has for the most part been pretty ecumenical in criticizing human rights abuses in both leftist and rightest contexts. The fact that most of their members are on the progressive side of things is merely more evidence that thoughtful people TEND to be on the progressive side of things -- but the right has no problem using Amnesty's facts when it suits their purposes.
Which brings me to my next point. I am, in most contexts, completely against the death penalty. Even assuming certainty that the guilty party is being punished (a BIG assumption), I feel it does more damage to us as a culture than it does to the convicted. Still, for folks like Saddam, I'm more than willing to make an exception. He who lives by capital punishment (for offenses like, say, speaking out against evil) better be darn ready to die by capital punishment! He'd better be happy if he avoids the worst forms of disfiguring torture. If he gets shot by a firing squad, he's getting off easy. Still, I'd rather see him tried at the Hague, because I believe in International Law (it may be our only salvation, ultimately). THEN, he should be tried in Iraq and cut down like a dog.
Still, the hyporcracy of the majority of the rightwing of the U.S. foreign policy establishment is truly stunning. These are the same people (and I'm not talking figuratively here...I mean quite literally the same people), who installed a series of ultra-repressive rightwing governments no better than Saddams in Latin America. The same people continenced, or even encouraged, truly horrific torture and murder in our own bacikyard, but are now claiming "moral clarity" in their attack on Saddam.
I haven't thrown up since I was ten, but thinking about that makes me feel genuinely nauseous.
Which brings me to my next point. I am, in most contexts, completely against the death penalty. Even assuming certainty that the guilty party is being punished (a BIG assumption), I feel it does more damage to us as a culture than it does to the convicted. Still, for folks like Saddam, I'm more than willing to make an exception. He who lives by capital punishment (for offenses like, say, speaking out against evil) better be darn ready to die by capital punishment! He'd better be happy if he avoids the worst forms of disfiguring torture. If he gets shot by a firing squad, he's getting off easy. Still, I'd rather see him tried at the Hague, because I believe in International Law (it may be our only salvation, ultimately). THEN, he should be tried in Iraq and cut down like a dog.
Still, the hyporcracy of the majority of the rightwing of the U.S. foreign policy establishment is truly stunning. These are the same people (and I'm not talking figuratively here...I mean quite literally the same people), who installed a series of ultra-repressive rightwing governments no better than Saddams in Latin America. The same people continenced, or even encouraged, truly horrific torture and murder in our own bacikyard, but are now claiming "moral clarity" in their attack on Saddam.
I haven't thrown up since I was ten, but thinking about that makes me feel genuinely nauseous.
http://www.forwardtoyesterday.com -- Where "hopelessly dated" is a compliment!
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Boy With A Problem
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noiseradio
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Bobster,
Go all the way with your disgust. We installed Saddam, back when he was the enemy of our enemy (Iran) and therefore our friend. Iraqis marched into Kuwait with American supplies and equipment. And we were fine with him using chemical weapons of mass destruction back then.
I still will shed no tears for him. He took the job.
Go all the way with your disgust. We installed Saddam, back when he was the enemy of our enemy (Iran) and therefore our friend. Iraqis marched into Kuwait with American supplies and equipment. And we were fine with him using chemical weapons of mass destruction back then.
I still will shed no tears for him. He took the job.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
--William Shakespeare
--William Shakespeare