RIP Karol Wojtyla, Pope John Paul II

Who Shot Sam? · Post by **Who Shot Sam?** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:30 pm

Mr. Average wrote:So there is mourning associated with the transition, and the fear of uncertainty. Very much a part of the human condition. It's okay. Normal. Expected. Human.

It all seems kind of hysterical to me, but then again I'm going to hell.

Copenhagen Fan · Post by **Copenhagen Fan** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:07 am

I have to add my two cents, because I'm an advocate of free speach. I was a bit shocked by the statement that the "fucker should rot in Hell", but at the same time a smile passed my lips as I thought it was so outrageous that it was kinda funny in a perverse way!

Let's face it....the Pope was probably a pretty good guy, with good intentions, and extremely intelligent and a very worldly and clever person! A big talent and cultural icon for many. But at the same time, even if his heart was in the right place, his religious conservatisim was a bit out of line with today's world. Anyone who proclaims that birth control is wrong, in a world where the 3rd World is dying of AIDS and starvation because of overpopulation, is dilusional. I won't even go into his anti-gay policies. But that's par for the course when religion runs your life. So for me, he lacks any real value as a leader other than an icon for his followers...kinda like the Ayotolah in Iran. Same thing...difference belief system. Now that I think about it....I'm glad So Lackluster said what he did...it's a statement that provokes thought and debate......! That's why free speach rules.

SoLikeCandy · Post by **SoLikeCandy** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:54 am

That was a really cool comment! Cope...I'm...I'm speechless. Whoa.

Copenhagen Fan · Post by **Copenhagen Fan** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:58 am

Candy..my recent bout with illness along with penile malfunction has tempered my idiotic hormonal and thoughless behavior of the past

I'm making an effort to be more real and introspective like I am in real life.

pophead2k · Post by **pophead2k** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 8:19 am

I am not Catholic, nor am I particularly religious, but I do teach in a Catholic school and am therefore exposed to a lot of the great things the church has to offer. I also disagree with many of the tenets held by Catholics, as embodied by Pope. However, I feel that within the sphere that he worked, this was a Pope who did a tremendous job of standing firm in his beliefs, even the ones I disagree with. I admired his opposition to the Iraqi war in particular. I wish him peace, as I'm sure he would have wished the same for me.

SweetPear · Post by **SweetPear** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:52 am

Well said, Pophead.......and to some extent, you too Cope.
I was raised in an Italian/Catholic household and I am a practicing Roman Catholic. My four children also go to Catholic schools, although that's more because of my disgust with our public school system than my concern for them getting a Catholic education.
I have a lot of problems with the Catholic church.....birth control, it's acceptance of women, it's scandleous cover ups.......exactly what Cope said...his religious conservatism I thought was very much out of line with today's world.
BUT, I do believe he was a good man totally devoting himself to peace and love among ALL people and he deserves respect.
I still think SLL comment was rude, but the dialogue it's created, I think, is a good thing.

Copenhagen Fan · Post by **Copenhagen Fan** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:00 am

SweetPear...ooooh I was also raised in an Italian/Catholic household.....I think the COUCH is calling big time now

so lacklustre · Post by **so lacklustre** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:31 pm

I don't understand why standing by your beliefs is a good trait, especially when they are clearly ill founded. It takes a lot more guts to admit you were wrong.

Sorry for being rude, it was half meant to be funny but I can see how some people could get upset by the tone of my post. I stand by the context of my words and my right to post my thoughts on this thread though.

pophead2k · Post by **pophead2k** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:14 pm

so lacklustre wrote:I don't understand why standing by your beliefs is a good trait, especially when they are clearly ill founded. It takes a lot more guts to admit you were wrong.

His beliefs were ill founded to you, but evidently not to him. I stand up for many beliefs that my family thing are ill founded, but they certainly aren't to me. By the way, I definitely disagree with the Catholic church on a huge number of issues, and in my opinion their stances on these issues are ill founded, but my Catholic friends will tell me that the beliefs are very well-founded. Personal opinion, I guess- and I support your right to state yours.

Post by **BlueChair** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:12 pm

It was nice of him to say that I wouldn't be going to hell for being Jewish, but hopefully the next pope can say the same about homosexuals.

baby steps, I guess

Copenhagen Fan · Post by **Copenhagen Fan** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 2:34 am

Come to think of it....The Pope's political standpoint was actually similar to Axel Rose's One In A Million ..........

Gillibeanz · Post by **Gillibeanz** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:35 am

I think everyone is really in agreement here - the Pope the catholic faith and nearly all religions just needs to update to whats happening in todays world! Religions tend to stick to values and opinions that were made thousands of years ago and not at all relevant now.

invisible Pole · Post by **invisible Pole** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:14 am

Just for the record : not everyone.
Unless you think I don't have the right to be here.

bambooneedle · Post by **bambooneedle** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:28 am

"Just stand up for what you belieeeeve in!" -Paul Stanley

Post by **spooky girlfriend** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:38 am

Nice point, Gilli. And Blue, as well.

You guys want to see some real hatred towards women and gays, then hop right on down to your nearest Baptist church. Spent some time there during my first marriage (almost watched my ex act on a whim to go to Baptist seminary for a youth ministry degree) and I can tell you that most of the Baptist churches in the south feel that gays egive the ministers something to talk about behind the pulpit, and women exist to give the straight men babies and put food on their tables.

I don't usually respond to threads where there is a lot of anger or debate, because I am a peacemaker by nature, having spent many years growing up in an unhappy home. I am a Catholic. By choice. Converted about six years ago. After spending time in several different denominations over the years, I have found that at least this particular church has had much to offer me.

My church was founded in 1963 when things here in Alabama weren't pretty if you were African American. Our particular parish was started so that blacks could have somewhere to worship when they weren't welcome in other area Catholic churches. They ended up inviting whites to worship, and now there is a wonderful mix of all ethnic backgrounds there. The order of priests and nuns which staff our church are of a mission order, and are not even similar to most of the priests and nuns you ever see on tv or movies, wearing street clothes, etc. Their mission background makes them one of the most accepting groups I have ever come in contact with.

If you look between the pews, you will find in any religious organization that most people are looking for a faith that suits them. They take what fulfills them and don't apply what they don't want. The same holds true for many Catholics. I can name at leat a dozen people that I know in my church who are on birth control or who have had tubes tied, a vasectomy, etc. and they don't hate gays or Jews or anyone else. I guess my point here is that many Catholics have already moved forward into modern society and figured out that as time goes on, some things don't apply anymore. It's just a matter of feeling comfortable with your faith and whether or not you want to stay in it or leave it. I don't push my opinions or beliefs on others. Having a faith is important to me, and though I disagree with many of the official stands of the late pope and the church as a whole, I feel comforted by this particular Catholic church which I attend.

Post by **BlueChair** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:48 am

invisible Pole wrote:Just for the record : not everyone.
Unless you think I don't have the right to be here.

You very much have a right to be here, and a right to mourn along with the citizens of both your country and much of the world.

selfmademug · Post by **selfmademug** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:44 am

I highly recommend the great piece about the Pope I saw last night on FRONTLINE. It's full of both heartfelt, reasoned appreciation and pointed critique, all of it moving. Great stuff from scholars inside and outside the Church, as well as writers and other thinkers of different perspectives(Germaine Greer and Robert Stone among the believers, e.g.) A really fantastic historical and personal explication of JPII. You can watch some episodes of FRONTLINE online, but not this one yet. Check here if interested:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pope/

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:06 pm

Spooky:

Your commentary is accurate and just. In particular, your point that many Catholics are not simply sheep that are being mindlessly led by antiquated dogma. Instead, many are right thinking, critical thinking people who can review the information on these hotly debated issues and make decisions for themselves. It might amaze many who have derrogated the Pope and the teachings of the Catholic Church if they would take a moment to read some of the papal encyclicals written over the last 50 years or so. Since Synod 1969, Vatican II, etc, the Catholic Church has been working hard to reinvent itself so that it can handle the customs, mores, and needs of its people.

Many of the papal encyclicals state that, on particular issues that the local priest has taken an unwavering stance on, the individual is "bound by conscience"...not 'bound by dogma"...not "bound by what Father O'Reilly said Sunday at Mass"...but

...Bound by Individual Conscience.

That means that the religion is tolerant to, and more importantly, supportive of, an active examination of conscience together with an active and critical examination of the facts as they are available. Because I have taken the time to truly understand the teachings of the Leaders of my Faith, I have a very profound and deep understanding and respect for its power in my life.

Of course, it is easy to cheat in this scenario...the cheaters are the sheep who wear religiosity as a crutch and a symbol and an image.

The term catholic means concerning all humankind, universal. So the local 'branches' of the Vatican will inevitably take differing positions in order to try to establish a fixed set of rules so that the 'masses' (lot's of people) will have a roadmap. That is an important segment of the Catholic Church. But an equally important segment are the critical thinkers who understand that the church teaches 'bound by conscience', and that they have the ability, through their relationship with Christ, to come to a conclusion that is subject specific, and not universal. It makes it more challenging to practice the Faith, because it means that if your want to do it with the full use of your faculties, you need to work at it. But if you work at it, the returns are incredible.

Props to you, Invisible Pole (Visionable Pole).

Copenhagen Fan · Post by **Copenhagen Fan** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 4:19 am

My experience and one thing that sours me big time on religion is the fact that so many people proclaim their devotion to their religion, or the Pope for that matter and then go out and buy themselves a teen age hooker or sodomize choir boys................If you're gonna go dark and distorted, at least have the balls to embrace your lack of morality and revel in it instead of being a phony.

Call a spade for a spade....I know you all practice the art of "self abuse" even though the Pope doesn't relish it.

miss buenos aires · Post by **miss buenos aires** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:15 am

I saw a really interesting play last night called "Doubt," by John Patrick Shanley. It's about a parish priest and a nun who suspects him of molesting one of the students in her school. It's left purposefully open whether he did it or not. Definitely worth seeing, if you can get into New York.

SweetPear · Post by **SweetPear** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:24 am

But Cope...there's such a thing as forgiveness. I don't mean use that as an excuse, but we are human. I think the concepts of forgiveness and redemption and hope along with using one's "individual conscience" totally embraces what the whole (Catholic) religious existance is about.
If you believe in the higher power, I don't understand how you can actually live any other way. I mean, what's the use?

Spooky~What you said was right on.

so lacklustre · Post by **so lacklustre** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:55 pm

So it's okay to sodomize choir boys because god or the pope will forgive you? Or maybe the sodomizing priest forgives the choir boy for leading him into temptation?

Mr. Average · Post by **Mr. Average** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:18 pm

Of course it's not okay under any conceivable circumstances, and even posing the question as rhetorical (clearly, you know the answer) is rather silly, isn't it?

Forgiveness and absolution (sort of a means of addressing the sin head-on and commiting not to do it again) are not automatic, and they have little to do with interpersonal, or human interactions. True forgiveness and absolution occurs as a direct function of the transgressors willingness to face the problem, address ALL of it's consequences, and systematically do everything possible to reverse the consequences of the transgression. True Remorse. Without it, a priest, bishop, cardinal, pope can offer forgiveness, but it is not theirs to give if that forgiveness is outside of the earthly, human platform of social forgiveness. In the case of the absolution of sin, that forgiveness is Divine. Sure, priests through the sacrament of confession act as a medium for Christ in granting absolution for the sins...fully contingent on a sincere act of contrition on the part of the sinner. Without it, the transgressor is simply going through the motions.

There are many in organized religions that are simply going through the motions. It is socialized in, because Mom and dad, and Grandma and Grandpa were just going through the motions. Somehow, we percieve Grandma and Grandpa as being more reverent, more faithful...icons of the faith. In point of fact, often they have only recently adopted their rock-solid beliefs because they are on the other side of the life/death power curve.

Cope, what is the "self abuse" you refer to that we all do? Just for clarification. I think I understand your meaning, but I would like to be sure.

so lacklustre · Post by **so lacklustre** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:31 pm

Please forgive me for being silly oh god of the EC board. (must stop being silly. Cut out the silliness)

Rather silly of you to respond to a rhetorical question isn't it? (that's rhetorical too, you knew you were being silly).

Anyway, enough of this silliness, let's discuss something less silly than priests sodomizing choir boys.

SoLikeCandy · Post by **SoLikeCandy** » Wed Apr 06, 2005 2:45 pm

I think out of all the regulars, I may have the lowest post count. There's a reason for that--I just like to listen. I don't have all that much to say msot of the time.

But damn, SLL--come off it, sugar. I think most of us support your right to say whatever you want, and to disagree with those of us who mourn the Pope's passing. This thread has become a discussion about religion and forgiveness and love and hatred and heaven and hell--and it's a fabulous thing. You've got us all thinking, and we're really sharing with each other. We support your right to express your views however you like--if we don't, then we have no business opening our own mouths.

Now, try a little tenderness, honey. Can we all agree to disagree? Can we accept being on opposite sides of this fence (a small thing, in the grand scheme--a mutual love of music brought us all to this corner of cyberspace), and move on with this discussion without being inflammatory? Or is a pissing contest the only thing that will soothe you?

I sincerely hope I don't come off like a bitch asking a child to use his "inside voice"--that's not my aim. However, the stands have been made, the soapboxes have been mounted, and we've all been sermonized by both sides of the church. Just let it go, babe.

By the way--I totally support your right to be silly.