candide

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miss buenos aires
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candide

Post by miss buenos aires »

I said, fuck Descartes, he's too boring, and so is Pascal. So I'm just hoping they don't come up on the exam. And as a special treat to myself, I started the 18th century with Voltaire's Candide. I know there are Voltaire fans out there, and if you aren't, you should be, so I'd like to invite all of you to a discussion. Topics we might discuss:

-paradise lost, paradise regained
-the role of evil in the world, the various human reactions to it
-El Dorado
-the final retreat--is Voltaire really suggesting that the appropriate response to evil is to retreat into one's garden and maintain a wilful ignorance toward events in the rest of the world?
-the importance of cultivating one's garden
-the folly of Leibitzien philosophy (everything is for the best in this best of all possible worlds)
-the Broadway musical
-or whatever comes to mind

And if you've never read it, it's like, 50 pages. Not a huge burden.
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mood swung
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Post by mood swung »

and it's screamingly funny, to boot! I'll have to re-read it to freshen up my crusty mind, but I'm in.

Rope hasn't seen this obviously, 'cos he suggested this very thing way back during the sabotage thread if I remember right.
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Post by bobster »

Well, I can tell you that a bit of the Leonard Bernstein "Candide" score was the theme to the old PBS Dick Cavett show....

Otherwise, despite having read it a decade or so back (though my version was almost 100 pages -- larger print and smaller pages can do wonders, can't it?), I have NOTHING intelligent to say.

I miss college :cry:
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lapinsjolis
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Post by lapinsjolis »

Voltaire scathed every imaginable school of thought! He is forever the disillusioned optimist, Martin-even rejecting 'the best of all possible worlds' theories finds no comfort in the book's truth. El Dorado is boring and a life of debauchery ruins the only constant, be it ascetic beauty, throughout the book.

That it is still relevant today is telling. We are always scandalized by the behavior of others. It can destroy us and our faith in all things. It's also the product of a man who has been changed by the brutality of war. Where I part ways with Voltaire, at this point in my life, is his constant failure to realize the difference between innocence and ignorance. He maintains Candide's optimism until near the end and innocence but more as a joke. Innocence because lack of knowledge of evil is valid but is not the only kind. There is an innocence in those who know the evils and corruption of the world and reject it for higher things. Yet remain in the world and not be of it-the constant struggle.

Voltaire becomes a moral isolationist. He thinks that the world intrudes-ah my dear Mr. Voltaire what if we intrude on the world? Summary: A false paradise and amorous monkeys-sounds like Miami!

It should be obvious, I'm not a scholar, just a bystander. If you don't tend your personal garden you become part of the problem and try to trounce mine.

The musical was one of those great revivals, as the first one was a flop despite such writers as Hellman, Dorothy Parker, and Latouche. Not to forget music from Bernstein as well. It wasn't until the seventies when they scrapped Hellman's play, found Bernstein music (!) and Sondheim penned some lyrics that it took the shape it has today. I think it was timing more than anything else. But may I blame Barbara Cook?

Blast that was boring!
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miss buenos aires
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Post by miss buenos aires »

Are you saying that Voltaire identifies with Martin? I think he's saying constant pessimism, no matter how founded it may be, is ultimately just as useless as baseless optimism, because it's just another way of avoiding engaging with the question of evil. Martin's Manicheanism lets him just sink into this pit of, "well, what do you expect? People suck," which has the same effect as saying, "everything is for the best, nothing's wrong."

And I think that Candide's innocence is a joke, yes, but it's a necessary joke for the character. Candida=the purest white, a white of total naïveté and innocence. Perhaps it's not until the very end, when they've made it back to "paradise" (the garden), that he can see things as they are; he no longer needs this blank, innocent ignorance to protect him from the reality of evil.

Amorous monkeys...tee-hee.
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lapinsjolis
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Post by lapinsjolis »

I think Candide and Martin represent pre and post war Voltaire. Each, of course, exaggerated to make a point. I do think he was much more Martin in the end though. Everyone's a suspect and everyone is corrupt. He means it! Voltaire seems to say 'sancitfy yourself and retreat from the world' rather than St. Francis of Assisi's "Sanctify yourself and you sanctify the world". An ironic thing, Pangloss is dying of syphilis he holds true to his best possible worlds,as he claims it is best. It turns out to be true as 'Candide' helped revolutionized France in treatment of venereal disease and small pox. A productive cynic is rare but not impossible as Voltaire proves. He exposes evil and changes the world, he meant to-an optimist.

The 'garden' is of course a new Eden only it isn't paradise but existence. It seems to me a grim ending of settling. I'm gloomy so maybe I shouldn't comment. I'm feeling more like Martin and Pangloss as of late. Rivers are made for men to be drowned in. . some anyway.

I will try to 'Glitter and Be Gay'. :wink: And get some sleep! :roll:
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mood swung
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Post by mood swung »

The irony of Pangloss dying of syphilis in the best of all possible worlds is outdone only by the irony of implying that one has a choice of possible worlds. And this is the best possible choice!!! How depressing is that?!
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A rope leash
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The garden...

Post by A rope leash »

You girls are turning me on.

I won't have time to read this again, but I do remember this book. My take on Voltaire, this book, and your conversation is this: Evil is relative, and indistingushable from Good much of the time. So, why not retreat, and protect yourself, and in my case, protect others?

Every one and every thing is suspect. You can sancitfy yourself, but you can't sanctify the whole world, and even if it was possible, you could never know for certain that it actually was. So, retreat to your garden, and take care of yourself and yours, and beware of all comers, even the closest companion, or the dearest love, because they are HUMAN, and prone to folly, and selfishness, just like you.
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A rope leash
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Get it?

Post by A rope leash »

"Dogs are forever in the 'start' position" - Mitch Hedberg
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Post by bobster »

Wow, the next best thing to college!

But a questions for Ms. Lapinsjolie -- I hadn't realized (or had forgotten) that they scrapped an earlier "book" by Lillian Hellman before the play finally made a hit. Who did the rewrite of the book? Was it Sondheim, or did he just do the lyrics?
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Post by lapinsjolis »

Mood Swung-Voltaire is depressing, but at least with a purpose. Cheer up Strawberries are in season, you can practically live on them-there are lovely in any possible world.

Bobster-Hellman's play had shades of anti-McCarthyism. I guess it must have dated it. It just seems wrong that they threw it away. Ah well! Sondheim just wrote additional lyrics Hugh Wheeler ( of 'A Little Night Music' fame) wrote the new book.

Mr. Leash-I defy the musical theater nerd side of me to turn anybody on.

For Miss BA a depiction of illicit monkey love:

<img src="http://prod.bsis.bellsouth.net/coDataIm ... 0Zaius.jpg" width="328" height="424">
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SweetPear
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Post by SweetPear »

Rope~ would you mind elaborating......'Evil is relative and indistinguishable from Good most of the time'?
I'm not angry anymore....
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miss buenos aires
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Post by miss buenos aires »

Maybe Pangloss has syphilis because Voltaire agrees with Locke. Locke depends on a sensual experience of the world, i.e., he only takes into account what he can perceive with his senses. Pangloss, who refuses to believe the vidence of his senses, comes down with syphilis, and what does he lose? One eye, one ear and the end of his nose. Use it or lose it.
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A rope leash
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Okay...

Post by A rope leash »

..."much" of the time.

For instance, Sweet, The Catholic church. They're all about "good" on the outside, but on the inside they're about bigotry, discrimination, and molestation of children.

Bigotry? "We going to Heaven, and Jews are not".

Discrimination? "Women cannot be priests".

Child molestation? They are guilty: Possibly as many as ten percent of the Catholic clergy are or were involved in such activities, and almost all of the rest of them participated in the cover-ups.

Of course, they also do "good" things, but much of that has to do with their own self-interests, that is, staying rich.

Don't get excited. It's just an opinion, generated by my own observations.

Need another example of "evil" hiding as "good"? GWB!
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lapinsjolis
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Post by lapinsjolis »

Pangloss is punished for every philosophy. Voltaire would have given Pollyanna syphilis! I never thought of the Locke connection even though Pangloss' senses are ravished. Interesting. . .Pangloss used his senses quite a bit though. That's how the trouble starts or is it?

So than there is no need to save you a spot at Mass this Sunday Rope?
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A rope leash
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Sure...

Post by A rope leash »

Go ahead and save me a spot, and let the continued vacancy of that spot remind everyone that there are many people who simply won't fall for the pomp and ceremony. Let the spot remind them of all the "evil" still out there, the other religions, the non-believers, and the defrocked.
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Post by lapinsjolis »

Now who is getting excited? I was just teasing you A Rope Leash, though you are welcome. I can only say you are entitled to you opinion and every source of power and authority should be questioned. You are, however, mistaken-but Catholic apologetics don't appeal to me on an Elvis Costello message board. Let alone a Candide thread-Voltaire would be appalled.

Direct any more personal attacks to a more discrete private message inbox.

The subject is Candide and I was enjoying it.
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Post by mood swung »

for anybody interested:

http://www.literature.org/authors/voltaire/candide/

yep, it's all there. and free too.

good call on the Locke inference MBA--he may not believe the evidence or he may refuse to use his senses in any way other than for pleasure. He's built a wall of denial, maybe a mirror of denial and all his perceptions just reflect his own ideas. I guess he's cultivating his garden behind that wall.

strawberries...yes, I'll have some! the best of all possible strawberries.
Like me, the "g" is silent.
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Post by Poppet »

oooh, tks for the link! i really should put up a better link to Wuthering Heights on my home page, in case there's anybody anywhere looking at it.

thanks!!
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A rope leash
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Sorry...

Post by A rope leash »

I apologize to Lapins for bashing the church so openly, and so early in the day. I'm full of shit sometimes, and I don't know when to shut up.

Voltaire would only be appalled by the fact that I could say such things and get away with it. Had he said such, he would have been hung for heresy.
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Post by shabbydoll »

Nice picture, Lap. I thought this was going to be about VD! :lol: :lol:
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Post by Otis Westinghouse »

It is, in part. Am feeling very left out due to somehow having failed to be exposed to Candide at any time. Am inspired to rectify it, aas Voltaire is a fascinating figure. When did candida 'pure white' become candida 'genus of parasitic, yeastlike fungi'? Is Voltaire playing on this, or is it coincidental?
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Post by pip_52 »

Its been years since I read Candide, so I also feel sort of left out. But its all coming roaring back to me . . . well, maybe not roaring, trickling perhaps.

Maybe I should just read it again.
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Post by laughingcrow »

"It is indispensable in this best of words. For if Columbus, when visiting the West Indies, had not caught this disease, which poisons the source of generation, which frequently even hinders generation, and is clearly opposed to the great end of Nature, we should have neither chocolate nor cochineal."
For me, this is one of the most interesting parts of Candide...the Panglossian paradigm of the adaptionist program. Why should something in life exist simply to fulfill a purpose, or if not, then simply as a by-product of a purpose?

:twisted:
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A rope leash
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Wait while I read.

Post by A rope leash »

That's twisting my brain. Speak more.
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