Momofuku Poll #2 - Whaddya think?

[verbal gymnastics]

Things are certainly easier now that the lyrics are available.

Not that any of the lyrics have been given dodgy VG treatment!

[Poor Deportee]

We're all free to have our own opinion, blah blah blah, but I find a lot of the negative comments around this album to be sadly symptomatic of a tendency of long-time fans. They (we?) wear rose-coloured glasses about the artist's past work, and chronically tend to disparage the latest stuff. You know, plenty of Beatles fans wished, at the time, that the band had stopped with Sgt. Pepper; The White Album or Abbey Road "sucked," don'tcha know.

This album is dominated by songs that are comparable in quality to most of the material on albums from Trust to Spike (what i think of as his 'middle period'). Taking into account differences of production and tone on various records, ANY of the following would fit comfortably on most of those albums:

-Hiding Place
-American Gangster Time
-Turpentine
-Harry Worth
-Flutter and Wow
-Stella Hurt
-Mr Feathers
-Go Away

and the remaining three numbers, with the possible exception of the slight and badly-recorded 'Drum and Bone', are at least comparable to weaker cuts on those earlier records.

Listening to some people online, it's as though 'Long Honeymoon' is some epic masterpiece and 'Harry Worth' is *obviously* third-rate; as if 'Just About Glad' is genius, and 'Stella Hurt' mediocre; as if ''Fifteen Petals" is some lyrical gem, and 'My Three Sons' a waste of air time. In fact these are all strong songs (with the possible exception of 'Just About Glad' )

Then of course you've got those "sophisticated" types who are pleased to identify with EC's "sophisticated" later works like North, Painted from Memory etc., and don't like this because it's too punchy and "simplistic." But what do these types have to say about that 10 years of punchy pop/rock records??? I guess "Pump It Up" sucks because it uses one chord.

Excluding perhaps his first four albums (even that's a stretch), as well as the indestructible Blood and Chocolate, EC generally has not made albums that are utterly consistent in song quality and utterly filled with epic masterpieces (King of America comes closest in the masterpiece department, but it's wildly inconsistent). He's most typically made pop/rock albums that have lots and lots of strong songs on them, along with the occasional weaker track thrown in for whatever reason. (Even King of America has the slightly banal 'Lovable' on it, 'The Loved Ones' on IB is basically a dud; etc.). This record is like that; consistent with, say, Trust (except that it's better sung).

That's good enough for me. And I can't fathom how it's not good enough for EC fans. Put another way, if he released Trust today, a significant number of his fans would rate it as medicore, unworthy of earlier 'masterpieces' like...oh, I dunno, Punch the Clock.

(I will say that this is the first record on which I really miss Bruce Thomas. The bass playing is strong but just not as endlessly inventive - that's one sense in which the early records really were better than this one).

[ahawkman]

Great points, Poor Deportee. I'm just happy MF has a little of the classic Elvis feel. He can never replicate the greatness of the first 4 IMO, not because he is incapable of writing such songs, but becuase they wouldn't be as groundbreaking and astonishing as they were in 1980.

I do agree that BT is missed, and has been (by me) since he left. I also dislike the muddy, bass-heavy production of his last 3 (MF is not as bad as TDM and WIWC, though). I feel his earlier stuff has MUCH cleaner production than the recent. Compare 2 "chaotic" songs like Turpentine and Lipstick Vogue for instance. To me, every note of LV is clean and focused while the messy part of Turp just makes me queasy.

[Fishfinger king]

Excluding perhaps his first four albums (even that's a stretch), as well as the indestructible Blood and Chocolate, EC generally has not made albums that are utterly consistent in song quality and utterly filled with epic masterpieces (King of America comes closest in the masterpiece department, but it's wildly inconsistent). He's most typically made pop/rock albums that have lots and lots of strong songs on them, along with the occasional weaker track thrown in for whatever reason. (Even King of America has the slightly banal 'Lovable' on it, 'The Loved Ones' on IB is basically a dud; etc.). This record is like that; consistent with, say, Trust (except that it's better sung).

I'm not sure why you're so aghast at the majority of comments - 51% think it's freaking awesome and 14% one of his best, which is hardly a negative response. At the end of the day people are free to like and/or dislike what they want to - I love both Lovable and The Loved Ones and prefer Song With Rose to Flutter & Wow, My 3 Sons and Mr Feathers. As ahawkman says you can't make a new EC song have the shock of the new as in a pre-1980 one, but they can still be pretty damn good.

[Otis Westinghouse]

That's what I thought. Most of the long-term fans here love it. I think only Emotional Toothpaste (aka ET!) has been really negative.

naw, it's not a cool gritty stutter. it is clearly "made in twe nineteen twenty-nine". sound even changes. 2 different cuts.

I wondered if he'd stumbled, started saying 'Twe' and then corrected himself and left it in in a warts 'n' all spirit, but no, it clearly is an edit, and as such must be deliberate as it\'s way too obvious and easily avoided to be anything else. Must have been some reason... Sung as a straight '1929' live. Search me.

[Emotional Toothpaste]

Sorry to be the resident curmudgeon. Long time fan and will continue to be. A solid 33% rated it as "quite-good . . . to eh, its okay" and chose against the TWO higher ratings above those on the provided 6-point scale. And as the "newness" and excitement of this new release wears off, I would imagine a few of the other 66% might wish (or simply to neglect) to recant their high praise and acclaims to a more sober and objective appraisal subsequent a few more listens.


Be that as it may, I say again, there are some solid songs on the album which get my toes a-tappin. Not a hater.

[Otis Westinghouse]

Not as good as Trust then? For me it's a grower, like a lot of good records. At first I thought the opening three were great but overall it didn't have the depth of quality in the songs that TDM had, but then the qualities of several other songs became more apparent and the quality of it as a whole.

[Emotional Toothpaste]

Not as good as Trust then?

This is ridiculous, but well worth the typing exercise -- a track by track showdown . . . .

1. No Hiding Place vs. Clubland = winner is No Hiding Place
2. American Gangster Time vs. Lovers Walk = winner is Lovers Walk
3. Turpentine vs. You'll Never be a Man = draw
4. Harry Worth vs. Pretty Words = winner is Pretty Words
5. Drum and Bone vs. Strict Time = winner is Strict Time
6. Flutter and Wow vs. Luxembourg = draw
7. Stella Hurt vs. Watch your Step = winner is Watch your Step
8. Mr. Feathers vs. New Lace Sleeves = winner is New Lace Sleeves
9. My Three Sons vs. From A Whisper to a Scream = draw
10. Song w/ Rose vs. Different Finger = winner is Different Finger
11. Pardon Me Madam = winner by default
12. Go Away = winner by default

So, to answer your question, no its probably not as good as Trust, but its 2 completely different Elvi, isn't it? 25 years or so different?

[bambooneedle]

Fool

[colrow26]

Emotional Toothpaste wrote "So, to answer your question, no its probably not as good as Trust, but its 2 completely different Elvi, isn't it? 25 years or so different?"

I'll blame it on arithmetic but i reckon Momofuku wins 7 to 5 - and what happened to Fish and Chip paper and Big sisters clothes????

[Hawksmoor]

For that matter, what happened to 'White Knuckles' and 'Shot With His Own Gun'?

[BlueChair]

"No Hiding Place" over "Clubland"? Seriously?

[Poor Deportee]

Hee hee, this IS a ludicrous exercise, but a fun one, so I'll take up your suggestion as follows:

1. No Hiding Place vs. Clubland = winner is No Hiding Place.

Let's call it a draw.

2. American Gangster Time vs. Lovers Walk = winner is Lovers Walk

This is a saw-off. Neither song is all that killer, but both are enjoyable.

3. Turpentine vs. You'll Never be a Man = draw

Agreed. A draw.

4. Harry Worth vs. Pretty Words = winner is Pretty Words

No way. Harry Worth is a wonderful song, full of pathos. At best a draw, but I give the edge to Harry Worth.

5. Drum and Bone vs. Strict Time = winner is Strict Time

No argument at all.

6. Flutter and Wow vs. Luxembourg = draw

Come now. Flutter and Wow has the edge against this fun throwaway.

7. Stella Hurt vs. Watch your Step = winner is Watch your Step

Hmmm...two powerful songs. This illustrates the problem with the exercise, because a terrific track from Momofuku is being compared to a truly classic EC cut due to random sequencing. Oh well. Watch Your Step Wins.

8. Mr. Feathers vs. New Lace Sleeves = winner is New Lace Sleeves

Another case of a terrific song being defeated by sequencing. NLS wins.

9. My Three Sons vs. From A Whisper to a Scream = draw

Oh PLEASE. My Three Sons *demolishes* this pedestrian song.

10. Song w/ Rose vs. Different Finger = winner is Different Finger

Agreed.

11. Pardon Me Madam vs. White Knuckles

Neither is very good. A draw.

12. Go Away vs. Shot with His Own Gun

Totally different songs doing totally different things. The winner is Shot With His Own Gun but the two are incomparable.

13. Fish N Chip Paper vs...

Winner by default. It would have been a draw vs. Go Away.

14. Big Sister's Clothes vs...

One of my favourite "minor" Elvis songs. This would be a terrific 'draw' against Mr. Feathers. But it wins by default.

If you add it up, and assuming my casual math to be correct, that's 3 wins for Momo, 4 draws, and 7 wins for Trust, 2 of the latter by default. If we subtract the defaults, we have 3-5-5. Not great for Momofuku, but to me that just proves the limits of the exercise For instance, if you put Stella Hurt #2 and American Gangster Time at 10, you'd have two more 'wins' for Momofuku. Nonetheless, a lark.

[migdd]

How one ever came to compare MF to Trust, I'll never figure out. The two albums are nothing alike as far as I can see and any comparisons are truly arbitrary. However. . .

. . .this looks like a fun waste of time so I'll give it a go. Realize I bought Trust the day it was released, four years after I bought MAIT, hot off the press! However, this long-time fan is not in a particularly nostalgic mood and Trust was never one of my favorite early EC albums so. . .

1. No Hiding Place vs. Clubland = Clubland is classic EC. One of the few on Trust. So the winner is Clubland.

2. American Gangster Time vs. Lovers Walk = winner is AGT. Lover's Walk is filler with a good drum part.

3. Turpentine vs. You'll Never be a Man = I'll agree this is a tough choice but I'll go with Turpentine beacuse of the more mature lyrical content.

4. Harry Worth vs. Pretty Words = Harry Worth by a long shot. Pretty Words is only half a song. I told you I wasn't feeling very sentimental tonight.

5. Drum and Bone vs. Strict Time = winner is Strict Time. One of my favorite songs on Trust verses my least favorite on MF.

6. Flutter and Wow vs. Luxembourg = Flutter and Wow is a fantastic soul balled, even better live than on the album. Luxemburg is not even a song but mere filler with the Attractions thrashing away, for those who like that sort of thing.

7. Stella Hurt vs. Watch your Step = winner is Stella Hurt. Watch Your Step is recyled bits of pre-professional EC songs. I like it well enough but Stella Hurt is a great song, telling a great story and it rocks like a monkey's ass!

8. Mr. Feathers vs. New Lace Sleeves = winner is New Lace Sleeves. New Lace Sleeves is probably the other classic song on Trust. Mr. Feathers has yet to grow on me.

9. My Three Sons vs. From A Whisper to a Scream = My Three Sons wins because it actually is about something real and has real feeling.

10. Song w/ Rose vs. Different Finger = winner is Song with Rose. Rose is nearly transcendent and a real country song, if the arrangement sort of hides that fact. Different Finger is faux country and an example of why EC chose to record other people's songs for Almost Blue. He was not yet able to write a proper country song with the same depth of the ones he so admired.

11. Pardon Me Madam vs. White Knuckles = Pardon Me Madame, My Name is Eve by a country mile! White Knuckles, while heartfelt enough, has a lethargic melody line and a grating rhythm track. Eve tells a great story, based on a simple but powerful metaphor and has wisdom on it's side, while White Knuckles is a churlish lyric written by a somewhat churlish young man.

12. Go Away vs. Shot with His Own Gun or Fish N Chip Paper or Big Sister's Clothes = hard to compare any of these, really. Go Away, while not a favorite for me (yet) doesn't have the stunning piano of Gun or the elegiac quality of Clothes but it does beat out the peppy nonsense of Fish N Chip Paper by a distance. Sure would like to hear the Imposters tackle an updated version of Clothes, although the song is somewhat dated now.

[alexv]

I agree with what FFKing and Otis have said in response to Deportee's point: only Et has been really negative about the record. I wouldn't say it's freaking awesome. MAIT, TYM, AF, GH, IB, KOA are freaking awesome. In my opinion, it's been a while since EC has made a freaking awesome record, by EC's standards. But I think this is a terrific EC record with only a few poor tracks, same as Trust, and it's better than any rock record he's done since BY.

I think Trust is a better record, if only because certain of its tracks (Clubland, Shot with your own Gun, Diferent Fingers, You'll never be a man and others) are by now iconic Ec songs. Also, songs like You'll never and Pretty Words, lyrically, given the time when they were recorded (post Ray Charles) take on a much greater significance. Even the lyrically obscure songs (like shot with his own gund or finger) had a kind of impact that overwhelms anything on MFuku. EC with only piano, with Steve playing almost operatically was eyeopening; different finger's faux country was also jarring. You could see EC expanding his musical horizons right before our eyes. The result would be IB.

Nothing on Mfuku, pleasurable as it may be, has that kind of resonance, particularly for those of us around at the time. It'll take a while for Mfuku's better songs to match up, for someone like me who grew up with the old songs. It's not blind nostalgia that provides the edge in comparison to Trust, it's time and context.

But it is a terrific record, and the fact that EC, in his 50s, managed to do it, is a remarkable achievement. No BB (although I have a weakness for that record), no phony Southern blues, no fake NO with AT, no fake Sinatra stylings, no fake guitar reverb, no faux classical. Just great EC pop songs...and Rilo Kiley.

[ahawkman]

Well-said, Alexv. Yes, the Trust - MF comparison is silly, but the take home message I get is how differently his biggest fans grade the songs. Especially the Trust songs which one would think may have reached a general consensus by now. One person's classic is another person's throwaway. I guess that's part of what makes the man so great!

[Emotional Toothpaste]

Otis posed the question to me "not as good as Trust then?" a few posts back, and that led to my track-by-incorrect track listing showdwon. Fun, but pointless exercise, agreed. Not sure why Trust was even brought up.

[wardo68]

Speaking as the resident authority on Trust (only kidding, folks!) I've given this some serious thought, and I'm going to have to give the edge to Trust, with bonus points to the Rykodisc reissue.

However, I've grown very fond of Momofuku. Will it gain a spot in my top 5? Nope. Will it get more plays than WIWC? Oh yes.

[Otis Westinghouse]

Otis posed the question to me "not as good as Trust then?" a few posts back, and that led to my track-by-incorrect track listing showdwon. Fun, but pointless exercise, agreed. Not sure why Trust was even brought up.

Intended as a humorous ref back to what Poor Deportee wrote:

'Put another way, if he released Trust today, a significant number of his fans would rate it as medicore, unworthy of earlier 'masterpieces' like...oh, I dunno, Punch the Clock.'

[verbal gymnastics]

Chatting with Sulky Lad the other night we both believed that the two weakest tracks on Momofuku were the co-written ones of Pardon Me, Madam, My Name Is Eve and Song With Rose.

This is the truth and is not up for discussion. Or comparison with songs from other albums.

[migdd]

Those are my two favorite songs on the album!

No, really!

[Mr. Misery]

I find Song with Rose to be the best song on the album and Pardon Me, Madam the weakest so--I agree with both of you!

Let's compare Momofuku with For the Stars! Track 1... [Edited by Administrator.]

[StrictTime]

Whoa, what happened there?

And verbal/sulkylad- I'd agree with you guys. Song With Rose is growing on me, but all in all those two songs are weaker than the others.

Oh, and I'm glad to see that I'm the winner, thank you, thank you. I couldn't have done it without Pretty Words and Luxembourg, my comrades in running order, who were there beside me the whole time. Thank you, thank you! *leaves stage amidst roar of applause*

[taramasalata]

"Song for Rose" is such a wonderful song, with a melody floating easily like a sailboat in the quiet waters of a calm sea, I only wished this song would go on forever... and words full of poetry. Am I wrong or is this about the years of suspended longing and loving with Cait? Having in mind that revealing article about her, that has been posted recently in "The Independent", I can't help but thinking that lines like "There is hope, and after that, there is only faith" are written in reference to her not being able of returning his love truely. And how could you put that in words more appropriate (and discrete)? It's wonderful!

And also love "Pardon me Madam", I can't see any weakness in there.
"Momofuku" is a brilliant record.

[verbal gymnastics]

It's great to see such positive views about the two songs which I consider to be the weakest songs on what is an excellent album. I'm not saying that they are bad songs; I'm saying that I consider them to be the weakest songs on the album.

I've said on a few occasions in these forums that, for example, on When I Was Cruel, the two weakest tracks are Soul For Hire and Oh Well, which were both songs from the film.

Now who's going to be first to tell me those two songs are their favourites from When I Was Cruel?